I don't really understand the importance of the memorial with all the annoited get a hit canned a few years back.
We Pass the Bread and the Wine Just like in the Bible! But, why is forbidden to eat?
by lusitano o tuga 63 Replies latest social humour
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TheWonderofYou
PASSING bread and wine ...is this not the sense of PASS-over? Does Jesus pass over the great crowd?
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pale.emperor
Interesting this is, i used to work with a Wiccan. Although i was a little scared of her (simply because she was openly Wiccan) i used to have some very interesting conversations with her about religion. She'd dabbled in many of the more darker, scary religions before becoming Wiccan. When she heard about the JW version of the memorial she said straight away "oh, like a black mass?" and thought we were doing it because we didn't believe in Jesus. When i explained that, no, we do believe in Jesus but only some partake she was adamant that it's a similar ritual that theistic Satanists or Luciferians do (cant remember which one it was) to deliberately reject the body and blood of Christ. She told me that some spit on it, some simply pass it without eating it and, so i was told, one person ate the bread then vomited it into the wine.
It could be pure coincidence that the GB make 8 million followers perform a black mass once a year or it could be they're doing it deliberately as their little joke. I dont know. Interesting thought though.
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Finkelstein
In basic understanding the JWS have made up its own unique doctrine that states that people have to self identify themselves as being one of the chosen anointed, therefore they alone are suppose to take the bread and drink the wine in symbolism of that recognition.
Most of other Christian based faiths by their bible interpretation has everyone take the bread and wine and supposedly god himself is to choose who are the chosen anointed ones.
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TheWonderofYou
Finkelstein wrote: "to self identify themselves as being one of the chosen anointed"
In former times one was automatically a chosen anointed, if one was a biblestudent.
Now you have to be either modest enough, persecuted or proud enough or mentally confused to identify yourself and yet physically fit enough to identify yourself. You could however also be an anonymous chosen anointed if you dont identify or recognize your call, or you could be kicked by a GB member to identify yourself to prolong even the overlapping period.
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OrphanCrow
paleemperor: ...deliberately reject the body and blood of Christ
The rejection of the blood of Christ at the memorial is consistent with the rejection of blood sharing.
No blood transfusions and no drinking of Christ's blood/wine. The ideology that underpins both is "Do not share blood".
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TheWonderofYou
I m caught in a resarch about origin of the christian pesach, passa, pasqua and easter festival, quartodecimans and western dates.
This text about the similiarities and differences of jewish and christian passa caught my eyes.
Passa und Ostern: Untersuchungen zur Osterfeier der alten Kirche
von Wolfgang Huber, 1969, Degruyter"For the relationship between the jewish and the quartodeciman passover the following conclusions can be drawn:
[Commonalities:]
The christian passover [Pascha, Passa, German, pasqua, italian] developed from the jewish passover.
It takes place on the same day as the jewish.
Like the Jews the earliest christians also awaited in the night of passover the Parousia [Coming of the Messiah]
The jewish passover haggada/story corresponds in the reading and explanation of Exodus chapter 12.
Perhaps the usage of Psalm 118 as lession in the easter-service corresponds to the usage of the Psalm 118 at the end of the jewish Passover-meal.Besides these commonalities theres are differences [in the early church].
Christians don't take part at the passover-meal but fast while the pessach-lamb is eaten.
While Jews ate the pesach-lamb the Christians (including christian with jewish roots) fasted, vicarious for the Jews! [because at Passover the Lord was crucified][compare fasting at Good friday...They didnt eat!.. after the destruction of the temple the sacrifices and eating of the lambs at pesach was given up, today Jews dont eat lambs at Passover]
The fasting began before the evening of the passover-meal and was ended after its end in the early morning by a celebration of Agape and Eucharist. Huber, 1969
But did they use symbols at all if they fasted?
The commemoration of the death of Christ was called the pascha staurosimon or the Passover proper.
The commemoration of the resurrection was called the pascha anastasimon, and afterwards Easter
The Christian Passover naturally grew out of the Jewish Passover as the Lord’s Day grew out of the Sabbath; the paschal lamb being regarded as a prophetic type of Christ, the Lamb of God slain for our sins (1 Cor. 5:7, 8), and the deliverance from the bondage of Egypt as a type of the redemption from sin. It is certainly the oldest and most important annual festival of the church, and can be traced back to the first century, or at all events to the middle of the second, when it was universally observed, though with a difference as to the day, and the extent of the fast connected with it. It is based on the view that Christ crucified and risen is the centre of faith.
The Jewish Christians would very naturally from the beginning continue to celebrate the legal passover, but in the light of its fulfillment by the sacrifice of Christ, and would dwell chiefly on the aspect of the crucifixion. The Gentile Christians, for whom the Jewish passover had no meaning except through reflection from the cross, would chiefly celebrate the Lord’s resurrection as they did on every Sunday of the week. Easter formed at first the beginning of the Christian year, as the month of Nisan, which contained the vernal equinox (corresponding to our March or April.), began the sacred year of the Jews.
Between the celebration of the death and the resurrection of Christ lay "the great Sabbath," on which also the Greek church fasted by way of exception; and "the Easter vigils," which were kept, with special devotion, by the whole congregation till the break of day, and kept the more scrupulously, as it was generally believed that the Lord’s glorious return would occur on this night.
The feast of the resurrection, which completed the whole work of redemption, became gradually the most prominent part of the Christian Passover, and identical with Easter. But the crucifixion continued to be celebrated on what is called "Good Friday." The paschal feast was preceded by a season of penitence and fasting, which culminated in "the holy week." This fasting varied in length, in different countries, from one day or forty hours to six weeks; but after the fifth century, through the influence of Rome, it was universally fixed at forty days, with reference to the forty days’ fasting of Christ in the wilderness and the Old Testament types of that event (the fasting of Moses and Elijah).
Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church
It would be trivial to say the easter-festival developped simply from a pagan tradition. It developped from the jewish passover.
Its part of a conspiracy theory coming from e.g. adventist side to say all church festivals like easter are pagan, after a socalled "fall of the church" about 100. AD. when apostel John died.
But the easter has its origin clearly in the jewish tradition and festivals and goes back to the first century and was originall called "The commemoration of the resurrection" "the pascha anastasimon", and afterwards Easter.
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TheWonderofYou
Both John and Luke note that Christ’s followers met together on “the first day of the week” (John 20:19; Acts 20:7; see also John 20:26). Luke also adds that the disciples were there to “break bread.” The reason for the abrupt shift seems to be the miraculous Resurrection; each Sabbath day for those earliest Christians was either a commemoration of or a reflection on the Easter miracle. Early Christian apologists Justin Martyr and Tertullian corroborate the celebration of Easter every Sunday in the Christian congregations of the second century.[3] Eventually these weekly commemorations appear to have melded into one annual Easter celebration. Early Church father Irenaeus documented this annual celebration as he wrote against the dogmatic position of Bishop Victor of Rome, who demanded that Easter be affixed to only one day (Irenaeus favored a date that coincided with the Jewish Passover). The fallout from that exchange confirms that by about AD 160 the Christian community had adopted a single, annual celebration.[4] The Christian community, however, was far from unified concerning the date of Easter.
read further at
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/celebrating-easter/christian-history-and-development-easterThe easter celebration on sunday
"Easter celebration on SUNDAY is owed to to the coincidence of the passover-festival, that was not bound to a certain day of the week, and the weekly celebration of sunday. Lordsday, not the calendar of the book of jubilees, is the precondition for the development of the easterfestival at sunday.
The LordsDay is a matter that has been mentioned here before also as a sign of "fall into apostasy", what I understand clearly to be also a conspiracy theory of adventists, as the Lordsday was originally not a replacement of the Sabbath but developped separately and already in the apostolic time next/besides the Sabbath as special christian tradition already in the first century. (according to the scientists)
(But back to the symbols what I dont know for certain yet:
If christians celebrated each week the LordsDay for the ressurection, did they each week fast, repent and forgive each other also and did they each week take of the symbols also (and then bread and wine -- or only bread) in the first century?)
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David_Jay
TheWonderofYou,
Actually, being a Jew myself I can attest that even we acknowledge that the Passover itself has pagan roots. I mentioned this in another thread: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5639150466236416/pagan-origins-memorial-observed-jehovahs-witnesses
True, Adventism has the earmark of being obsessed with ridding itself of anything "pagan," but the truth behind that is that certain forms of Christian theology tend to see our Scriptures as literal Jewish history when we ourselves know that they are not.
The NRMs that were born from the Second Great Awakening rejected many pastors and Christian scholars who had formal training. They often rejected the entire world of academic seminaries as part of "Babylon the Great," leaving themselves with a theology that read the Bible literally.
As a consequence, allegorical narratives in Scripture which seem to give Jewish customs and observances the status of being unique and "comes down from Heaven" are really religious ways we Jews have us to explain our adaptation of the very same. This was misunderstood by these New Religious Movements since they rejected actual religious scholarship.
Passover itself has pagan origins, likely a Spring full-moon festival observed by Abraham's ancestors that was passed on to Israel before they migrated to Egypt. The Exodus has been connected to that time, perhaps historically having occurred on the night of Spring's first full moon, and the feast and its emblems were thus given new meanings.
There was a movement in Judaism around 300 BCE to attribute historicity to the Exodus account, but the original view of it being more allegorical than historical resurfaced and won out. While Jews see no evil or shame in being honest about our celebration's origins, it creates a paradox for those who say pagan culture is a bad thing. This means that Easter and the JW Memorial observance, being based upon our Passover, both have pagan origins too.
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TheWonderofYou
With PASSOVER began the exodus from Egypt. Ex.12 with MAZZOT began the entry into the promised land.
Passover and Mazzot were originally two festivals of the early Israelite farmers, which later fell together, after the urbanization of israelite society and religion.
Passover was originally the festival at the decampment of the sheperdess and sheperds: with their herds they moved on to the distant early spring pastures. This happened after the winterrains and at the beginning of the vegetation period, so that the sheep and the goats didnt come with the grain into the enclosure.
Mazzot was the festival at the beginning of the harvest of the crop. The absence of leaven symbolizes that the harvest of the last year was completely consumed and that the community was dependent fully on the blessing of the coming year.
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Also a passover lamb slaugthering at 14. Nisan by the sheperds was combined with the Exodus story and celebration of Passover. The sacrifice of lamb was originally slaughtered by the farmers as protection of the evil demons and the blood spread at the door of the houses to protect the dwellings. This happened in shepherd cultures. The meaning of passover therefor is not only "pass-over" (in the legend a revenge demon passed over at 14.Nisan in Egpyt and spared the Jews) but therefore also "mercy and protection", "spare", "escape".
A long history of Judaism with hundreds of symbolized traditions. Pessach and Pentecoste e.g. with origin in the harvest festivals and other things.
Even christians talking about Passover and Pentecoste say that it turns around the harvest of men, so the harvest got into the christian religion.
Christians are harvesting men and are using fruits of the field for the harvest - bread and wine to symbolise the harvest of anointed ones - and they consume it or not.