how do most of you now feel about the military?

by sowhatnow 70 Replies latest social family

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  Simon

  However, 9/11 happened before the illegal invasion of Iraq. What must be acknowledged is that Salafi terrorism has its own centre of gravity - even if the West made no mistakes in foreign policy, there would still exist groups that want to kill us and establish Sharia across the world.

  Then look at where *they* came from - US sponsored Islamist propaganda used to indoctrinate and desensitize a generation of Afghan children to cause pain to the Russians.

  Why was the US fighting a proxy war with Russia? Ideology. Nothing more.

  It's naive in the extreme to imagine we can meddle with the lives of millions and expect no blow-back. They weaponized a religion that was predisposed to violent struggle. What could possibly go wrong ...

  A turning point in history was Reagan. He shafted the US and the world both economically and politically and now the republicans think he's some sort of god to be worshipped. He was a senile old fool and a shit actor.
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  Lostandfound

  Sorry misread

  how do you feel about the MINISTRY

  will go back to sleep
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  LoveUniHateExams

  I think we've touched on this before.

  Then look at where *they* came from - US sponsored Islamist propaganda used to indoctrinate and desensitize a generation of Afghan children to cause pain to the Russians - agreed. The US, shamefully and wrongfully IMO, got involved in Afghanistan. But 1980s Afghanistan wasn't the birthplace of Jihadism. In the 19th century what became Saudi Arabia experienced Islamic terrorism from followers of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. From what I remember reading, the local Shia were slaughtered as apostates by Sunni bedouin. The early Muslims spread Islam by the edge of the sword, too. There is no way it can be stated that Sunni terrorism came from the USA.

  It's naive in the extreme to imagine we can meddle with the lives of millions and expect no blow-back - maybe, but any blowback should be nipped in the bud. Why should modern Westerners suffer because of the sins of their forefathers?

  The inhumane treatment of Yazidis by Islamists is evidence that the Islamists have their own centre of gravity, and will be violent to all others regardless of what the West did or does.

  Incidently, 'blowback' is only ever applied against the West - e.g. we never hear that the Japanese should expect blowback because of the atrocities committed by the Japanese Empire. Why is this?

  He was a senile old fool and a shit actor - agreed. From what little I know of Reagan, he was incompetent and senile.

  NB - I don't want the USA to be let off deserved criticism. IMO, Bush and Blair should be in The Hague answering charges of war crimes because of the 2nd Iraq War. What annoys me somewhat is that it seems to me that the West, and particularly the USA, is held to a higher standard than other countries are. I'm not sure why, is it the racism of low expectations? Whatever.

  I'd also like to agree with DJS who stated earlier that the military mustn't be confused with bungling politicians.
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  Simon

  But 1980s Afghanistan wasn't the birthplace of Jihadism

  I wasn't claiming that it was completely. But it was used as a weapon and modern day islamic extremism has been heavily influenced by events of the last 40 so years.

  Just as if some right wing racist neo-facist group takes off ... it doesn't mean that they invented the concept. The nazis still happened and are ultimately the source of a belief system but that doesn't mean there isn't local and more recent inspiration for somethings.

  Why should modern Westerners suffer because of the sins of their forefathers?

  I'm not saying it's right or fair but that's what often happens. it's the descendants that suffer because of the resentment over past injustices.

  As an example closer to home: few people today ever owned slaves but there seems to be plenty of slavery-related resentment in some areas.

  we never hear that the Japanese should expect blowback because of the atrocities committed by the Japanese Empire. Why is this?

  Because they already paid a heavy price and they changed dramatically. If they were still invading and torturing people I think it would be a different story.

  There's a hint there for us ... we can't keep suggesting that we can carpet bomb civilians and not expect certain attitudes as a result. Look at the US from the eyes of someone at the other end of foreign policy and then imagine how they would feel and likely react. <- everything that's missing in foreign policy right there
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  cofty

  The RAF air to ground bombing is done using Brimstone missiles that are super-accurate and create a very focussed explosion. They cost £100,000 each but we use these even to blow up 1 vehicle containing an ISIS target.

  So far not one civilian death has been attributed to the RAF. We take extreme care to avoid collateral damage.

  Russia bombs indiscriminately, I don't know how much care the USA takes.
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  James Mixon

  We have the smart bombs, they are very accurate.
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  talesin

  What annoys me somewhat is that it seems to me that the West, and particularly the USA, is held to a higher standard than other countries are. I'm not sure why, is it the racism of low expectations? Whatever.

  LoveUni - I'm sure you know the concept of "American Exceptionalism". When you claim to be the best country in the world, and the protector of the weak, etc., then you are held to a higher standard by those countries that you constantly look down upon. It's quite simple, really. If the USA is better than everyone else, than be ready to prove it.

  : )
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  smiddy

  Jehovah never had any problem supporting the Military did he.

  smiddy
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  LoveUniHateExams

  Because they already paid a heavy price and they changed dramatically. If they were still invading and torturing people I think it would be a different story - excellent answer. But you know what I mean. Trump's demand for a temporary ban on Muslims or the rise of right-wing groups across Europe, such as Pegida and Soldiers of Odin, are never referred to as 'blowback' by the liberal intelligentsia. Why not? Answer: because the Western liberal intelligentsia hold Western people, in particular Western white people, to a much higher standard than they hold other people. Am I connecting the right dots?

  Look at the US from the eyes of someone at the other end of foreign policy and then imagine how they would feel and likely react. <- everything that's missing in foreign policy right there - Excellent point. On reflection I agree, you're right. I've been a bit of a b*****d here. I should have more humanity and try to see things through the eyes of others. Innocent men, women & children hurt and killed by Western weapons is terrible, and needs to stopped as much as practicably possible.After I've got this rant of a post out of my system, I'll work on being more humane.

  But by the same token, we should also look at the actions of non-Westerners through the lens of Western norms, as our culture is largely superior to any others.

  If a Western father allowed his son to travel in a vessel that wasn't sea-worthy, there would be some criticism of his awful parenting. So, what about Alan Kurdi's father? Did he exhaust all possible options? Did he see if travelling across Europe by coach was possible? Or travelling to a Kurdish town in Eastern Turkey? Or staying put in Istanbul if that could work? Western media largely ignored these legitimate questions because they were too busy using the photo of Alan Kurdi, face-down in the sand, as some sort of macabre poster bot for further EU migration: "Get in the rubber dinghies, Muslimoun, hopefully the Royal Navy will rescue you and you won't end up like Alan Kurdi" - disgusting.

  Just to say, I'm all for sensible migration, that's why I gave a positive comment on your thread about Canada taking refugees. By all accounts, Canada are doing it sensibly - taking a manageable number of children and their families. Contrast that to reports of refugees/migrants at Calais, threatening lorry drivers with knives as they try to get to the UK. They must have gone through 3 or 4 safe countries to get to Calais, and France isn't good enough for them, it seems.

  They should know their station in life.

  And their station, like mine, is Git Central.
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  LoveUniHateExams

  I'm sure you know the concept of "American Exceptionalism". When you claim to be the best country in the world, and the protector of the weak, etc., then you are held to a higher standard

  This is nonsense for three reasons.

  1. People from every country will say that theirs is the best in the world.

  2. It's not just the USA that is held to a higher standard. Every Western country is.

  3. It's not just people from other countries that apply this double standard. Western liberal commentators also do this.