Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    David Bentley Hart translates John 1:1 this way:

    “In the origin there was the Logos, and the Logos was present to God, and the Logos was god.”

    with this footnote:

    Or “god was the Logos,” going entirely by word order. In general, however, when two nominatives are placed in apposition and only one of them lacks an article, that inarticular noun is taken for the predicate and the articular for the subject. Still, there are many contrary examples in extant texts, word order is not entirely unimportant even in an inflected tongue like Greek, and the wording here seems intentionally elliptical, so as to avoid speaking of the Logos in a way that, in late antique usage, was reserved properly for the Father. To understand my translation of the first eighteen verses of the Gospel, the reader should refer to “A Note on the Prologue of John’s Gospel” in my postscript to this volume. Here in the Gospel’s prologue, as well as in the closing verses of chapter twenty below, I adopt the typographical convention of the capital G followed by small capitals to indicate where the Greek speaks of ὁ θεός (ho theos), which clearly means God in the fullest and most unequivocal sense, whereas I confine myself entirely to lowercase letters to indicate where the Greek speaks only of θεός (theos) without the article; but, to make the matter more confusing, I have indicated three uses of the word without article (vv. 6, 12, and 13), all concerning the relation between the divine and the created, in all small capitals, to indicate that it is not clear in these instances whether the distinction in forms is still operative, and whether the inarticular form of the noun is being used simply of God as related to creatures through his Logos. And then, in v. 18, I assume the first use of the inarticular form of theos still refers to God in the fullest sense, God the Father, though again the clause in question concerns the relation of creatures to the divine. As for the phrase translated in v. 1 as “present to God” (πρὸς τὸν θεόν, pros ton theon), it might be read any number of ways. Technically, the preposition when attached to an accusative would mean “toward” or “at,” and so might be read here as saying that the Logos was “facing” God, which would suggest at least a pictorial continuity with a tradition of seeing the Logos or “secondary god” as the heavenly high priest, turned toward the unknowable Father and leading the worship of God by all rational creatures. It also might be taken as meaning “pertaining to” or “in attendance upon” the Father.

    A Note on the Prologue of John’s Gospel

    An Exemplary Case of the Untranslatable
    There may perhaps be no passage in the New Testament more resistant to simple translation into another tongue than the first eighteen verses—the prologue—of the Gospel of John. Whether it was written by the same author as most of the rest of the text (and there is cause for some doubt on that score), it very elegantly proposes a theology of the person of Christ that seems to subtend the entire book, and that perhaps reaches its most perfect expression in its twentieth chapter. But it also, intentionally in all likelihood, leaves certain aspects of that theology open to question, almost as if inviting the reader to venture deeper into the text to find the proper answers. Yet many of these fruitful ambiguities are simply invisible anywhere except in the Greek of the original, and even there are discernible in only the most elusive and tantalizing ways. Take, for example, the standard rendering of just the first three verses. In Greek, they read, 1Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος· 2οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν· 3πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἓν ὃ γέγονεν· (1En archēi ēn ho logos, kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon, kai theos ēn ho logos; 2houtos ēn en archēi pros ton theon; 3panta di’ avtou egeneto, kai chōris avtou egeneto oude hen ho gegonen.) I am aware of no respectable English translation in which these verses do not appear in more or less the same form they are given in the King James Version: “1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” Read thus, the Gospel begins with an enigmatic name for Christ, asserts that he was “with God” in the beginning, and then unambiguously goes on to identify him both as “God” and as the creator of all things. Apart from that curiously bland and impenetrable designation “the Word,” the whole passage looks like a fairly straightforward statement of Trinitarian dogma (or at least two-thirds of it), of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan variety. The average reader would never guess that, in the fourth century, those same verses were employed by all parties in the Trinitarian debates in support of very disparate positions, or that Arians and Eunomians and other opponents of the Nicene settlement interpreted them as evidence against the coequality of God the Father and the divine Son. The truth is that, in Greek, and in the context of late antique Hellenistic metaphysics, the language of the Gospel’s prologue is nowhere near so lucid and unequivocal as the translations make it seem. For one thing, the term logos really had, by the time the Gospel was written, acquired a metaphysical significance that “Word” cannot possibly convey; and in places like Alexandria it had acquired a very particular religious significance as well.
    For the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo, for instance, it referred to a kind of “secondary divinity,” a mediating principle standing between God the Most High and creation. In late antiquity it was assumed widely, in pagan, Jewish, and Christian circles, that God in his full transcendence did not come into direct contact with the world of limited and mutable things, and so had expressed himself in a subordinate and economically “reduced” form “through whom” (δι᾽ αὐτοῦ [di’ avtou]) he created and governed the world. It was this Logos that many Jews and Christians believed to be the subject of all the divine theophanies of Hebrew scripture. Many of the early Christian apologists thought of God’s Logos as having been generated just prior to creation, in order to act as God’s artisan of, and archregent in, the created order. Moreover, the Greek of John’s prologue may reflect what was, at the time of its composition, a standard semantic distinction between the articular and inarticular (or arthrous and anarthrous) forms of the word theos: the former, ὁ θεός (ho theos) (as in πρὸς τὸν θεόν [pros ton theon], where the accusative form of article and noun follow the preposition), was generally used to refer to God in the fullest and most proper sense: God Most High, the transcendent One; the latter, however, θεός (theos) (as in καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος [kai theos ēn ho logos]), could be used of any divine being, however finite: a god or a derivative divine agency, say, or even a divinized mortal. And so early theologians differed greatly in their interpretation of that very small but very significantly absent monosyllable. Now it may be that the article is omitted in the latter case simply because the word theos functions as a predicate there, and typically in Greek the predicate would need no article. Yet this rule tends not to hold when the predication is one of personal identity; moreover, the syntax is ambiguous as regards which substantive should be regarded as the subject and which the predicate; though Greek is an inflected language, and hence more syntactically malleable than modern Western tongues, the order of words is not a matter of complete indifference; and one might even translate καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος as “and [this] god was the Logos.” But the issue becomes at once both clearer and more inadjudicable at verse 18, where again the designation of the Son is theos without the article, and there the word is unquestionably the subject of the sentence. Mind you, in the first chapter of John there are also other instances of the inarticular form where it is not clear whether the reference is the Father, the Son, or somehow both at once in an intentionally indeterminate way (as though, perhaps, the distinction of articular from inarticular forms is necessary in regard to the inner divine life, but not when speaking of the relation of the divine to the created realm).
    But, in all subsequent verses and chapters, God in his full transcendence is always ho theos; and the crucial importance of the difference between this and the inarticular theos is especially evident at 10:34–36. Most important of all, this distinction imbues the conclusion of the twentieth chapter with a remarkable theological significance, for it is there that Christ, now risen from the dead, is explicitly addressed as ho theos (by the apostle Thomas). Even this startling profession, admittedly, left considerable room for argument in the early centuries as to whether the fully divine designation was something conferred upon Christ only after the resurrection, and then perhaps only honorifically, or whether instead it was an eternal truth about Christ that had been made manifest by the resurrection.
    Anyway, my point is not that there is anything amiss in the theology of Nicaea, or anything that the original Greek text calls into question, but only that standard translations make it impossible for readers who know neither Greek nor the history of late antique metaphysics and theology to understand either what the original text says or what it does not say. Not that there is any perfectly satisfactory way of representing the text’s obscurities in English, since we do not distinguish between articular and inarticular forms in the same way; rather, we have to rely on orthography and typography, using the difference between an uppercase or lowercase g to indicate the distinction between God and [a] god. This, hesitantly, is how I deal with the distinction in my translation of the Gospel’s prologue, and I believe one must employ some such device: it seems to me that the withholding of the full revelation of Christ as ho theos, God in the fullest sense, until Thomas confesses him as such in the light of Easter, must be seen as an intentional authorial tactic. Some other scholars have chosen to render the inarticular form of theos as “a divine being,” but this seems wrong to me on two counts: first, if that were all the evangelist were saying, he could have used the perfectly serviceable Greek word theios; and, second, the text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos, not merely some sort of association between “God proper” and “a divine being.” Here, I take it, one may regard chapter twenty as providing the ultimate interpretation of chapter one, and allow one’s translation to reflect that.

    Hart makes clear in his footnotes and commentary that his use of the lowercase "god" used as a "typographical convention" and reflects a nuanced distinctions in Greek grammar and theological intention, not a rejection of the Logos’ divinity or affirmation of Arian theology. He explains, that the absence of the article before "θεός" (theos) in John 1:1c can signal a qualitative predicate nominative, emphasizing the Logos' divine nature or quality, rather than equating the Logos with God the Father. Hart explicitly rejects rendering it as "a god," criticizing such interpretations for lacking coherence with John's theological framework:

    Hart makes a deliberate typographical and interpretive distinction in his translation:

    • Capitalized "God" (ὁ θεός) refers to God in the fullest, most transcendent sense—God the Father.
    • Lowercase "god" (θεός), as used in John 1:1c, reflects the absence of the article, suggesting the Logos' divine nature rather than identifying it univocally with the Father.

    Hart further elaborates on this distinction in his commentary:

    “...the Greek of John’s prologue may reflect what was, at the time of its composition, a standard semantic distinction between the articular and inarticular (or arthrous and anarthrous) forms of the word theos: the former, ὁ θεός (ho theos)... was generally used to refer to God in the fullest and most proper sense: God Most High, the transcendent One; the latter, however, θεός (theos)... could be used of any divine being, however finite: a god or a derivative divine agency, say, or even a divinized mortal.”

    Hart does not imply that the Logos is merely "a god" or a derivative divine agency. Instead, he emphasizes that the qualitative use of "θεός" signals the Logos' participation in the divine essence while maintaining a distinction from "God" as the Father. This is crucial: Hart’s choice of lowercase "god" serves to honor the Greek syntax and theologically rich ambiguity of John's prologue, not to diminish the Logos' divinity.

    “Some other scholars have chosen to render the inarticular form of theos as ‘a divine being,’ but this seems wrong to me on two counts: first, if that were all the evangelist were saying, he could have used the perfectly serviceable Greek word theios; and, second, the text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos, not merely some sort of association between ‘God proper’ and ‘a divine being.’”

    Thus, while Hart's translation avoids flattening the subtleties of the Greek into a Nicene formulation, it also avoids reducing the Logos to a created or subordinate "god" as in Arianism or the New World Translation. Hart outright refutes interpretations like the New World Translation's "a god", arguing that such renderings fail to account for John's theological intentionality and the prologue's overarching narrative. He explicitly states:

    “The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos, not merely some sort of association between ‘God proper’ and ‘a divine being.’”

    Moreover, Hart identifies the climactic revelation of Christ's divine identity in John 20:28, where Thomas confesses Jesus as "ὁ θεός" (ho theos):

    “[It] seems to me that the withholding of the full revelation of Christ as ho theos, God in the fullest sense, until Thomas confesses him as such in the light of Easter, must be seen as an intentional authorial tactic.”

    This demonstrates that John's Gospel presents a progressive revelation of the Logos' divinity, culminating in the affirmation of Christ as fully and unequivocally God (ὁ θεός), in line with Nicene theology. Hart acknowledges that John’s prologue does not offer a systematic Trinitarian theology but instead uses metaphysical and linguistic subtlety to describe the Logos' relationship to God. His translation and commentary aim to preserve this subtlety without sacrificing theological coherence:

    • The Logos is "god" (θεός) in John 1:1c because it possesses divine nature.
    • The Logos is not "a god," as this would contradict John’s theological continuity between the Logos and the Father.
    • The Logos is not identical to "God" (ὁ θεός), as the prologue explicitly distinguishes between the Logos and the Father (pros ton theon, "present to God").

    Hart’s rendering aligns with the qualitative interpretation of "θεός" as articulated by many scholars (e.g., Harner’s study on predicate nominatives) and is consistent with traditional Trinitarian readings of John 1:1, even if his terminology is unconventional. Hart does not use the exact wording "the Word was God" but defends the theological substance of that translation. He explicitly rejects subordinationist readings like "a god" and affirms the Logos' continuity of divinity with God the Father. His rendering, "the Logos was god," underscores the Logos' divine nature while preserving the Greek text's linguistic nuance. Hart’s commentary confirms this. The Logos is described as possessing divine nature, not as a subordinate or separate being. The theological trajectory of John’s Gospel culminates in the recognition of the Logos as ὁ θεός (ho theos) in John 20:28, solidifying the Logos' status as fully and unequivocally God. This reinforces that Hart’s rendering is fundamentally aligned with Nicene theology, despite his stylistic departure from traditional translations.

    In the discussion cited above (and similar discussions Hart has engaged in), he emphasizes the grammatical complexity of John 1:1c (“καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”). Hart acknowledges that Greek grammar opens the possibility of rendering this phrase in ways other than “the Word was God,” but this does not imply an endorsement of Arianism or Jehovah's Witness-style theology. Rather, Hart highlights the philosophical and theological depth of the Greek text and its contextual meaning within early Christian thought.

    The phrase “καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος” lacks the definite article before theos, and the predicate precedes the subject. This construction suggests a qualitative aspect of the Word (logos) being divine or possessing the essential nature of God. It is not a simple equivalence between “the Word” (ho logos) and “God” (ho theos), nor does it imply subordination or separateness. As Hart himself notes: “If we go by word order, we fail to notice that the anarthrous form of theos stands to the arthrous form of ho logos as predicate to subject. […] John’s prologue does not give us a co-equal Son. John 20 does.He does not endorese the notion that the Word is presented as “a god” in a separate, subordinate sense, clarifying that John’s Gospel is concerned with the unity of the Logos with God’s essence.

    Hart does not endorse the New World Translation’s “a god”, because they fail to recognize the theological context and nuance. While the grammar allows for flexibility, the broader Johannine context makes clear that the Logos shares the essence of God, not merely some divine attribute or a lower-tier deity. This is consistent with the Orthodox Trinitarian understanding of the homoousios doctrine (the Word being of the same substance as the Father), a point Hart has elaborated on in his theological works, such as That All Shall Be Saved and The Experience of God.

    The New World Translation’s rendering of John 1:1c as “the Word was a god” arises from a theological bias, not the natural reading of the Greek text. The absence of the definite article before theos does not imply indefiniteness (“a god”). Rather, it indicates a qualitative use, affirming the divine nature of the Logos. As biblical scholar Daniel Wallace and others have noted, John 1:1c fits a “Colwell’s Rule” construction, where an anarthrous predicate noun preceding a verb (as in “θεὸς ἦν”) is typically qualitative, not indefinite. Hart concurs with this general linguistic observation, emphasizing that the Logos is qualitatively divine without identifying the Word as God the Father (ho theos in 1:1b).

    The prologue as a whole (John 1:1–18) emphasizes the Logos’s role in creation, life, and light, all attributes of God alone in the Jewish monotheistic framework. John 1:3 asserts that “all things were made through him,” ruling out any Arian subordinationism that would treat the Word as a created being. Hart draws attention to the continuity of this theological vision with early Christian metaphysics: the Logos, as the rational principle of creation, is not “a god” in the sense of a separate, inferior deity but is God’s self-expression in eternal communion. The Jehovah’s Witness rendering is specifically problematic because it introduces henotheistic flavor incompatible with John’s monotheistic theology. Hart rejects such interpretations as alien to the Gospel’s intent.

    Hart’s nuanced discussion about the Arian controversy and Nicaea does not, as your argument suggests, amount to an endorsement of Arian theology as "the apostolic faith," nor does it dismiss the Nicene Creed as mere innovation without theological grounding. Rather, Hart situates the Arian controversy within the broader historical and doctrinal development of early Christianity, emphasizing that theological articulations, including Nicene formulations, emerged from a dynamic and contested tradition.

    When Hart states that Arius was “an extreme expression of what was regarded by many [not by everyone, not even generally] as the orthodoxy of centuries,” he is not asserting that Arius’ theology constituted the original apostolic teaching. Instead, Hart is highlighting the diversity of early Christian thought and the historical reality that various theological perspectives coexisted prior to the Council of Nicaea. This does not amount to a claim that Arius’ views more accurately reflected apostolic faith. Rather, Hart’s commentary illuminates the theological fluidity of the pre-Nicene period, where key terms and concepts (such as homoousios) had not yet been formally defined.

    Hart’s acknowledgment that the Nicene party introduced "new theological grammar," including the term homoousios, does not equate to dismissing the Nicene position as illegitimate or inauthentic. The introduction of new terminology (not new theological content!) was a response to a theological need: to safeguard the Church’s understanding of Christ’s full divinity against interpretations that undermined it. Hart recognizes this as part of the natural development of doctrine. His commentary reflects the historical reality that councils like Nicaea did not merely codify existing consensus but also clarified and formalized contested doctrines.

    The assertion that Hart sees Nicaea as the innovation and Arius as the preserver of tradition is an oversimplification of his analysis. While Hart acknowledges that Arius’ views drew on certain pre-Nicene theological currents, he also situates Arianism as part of the broader theological spectrum that early Christians debated. Hart is not claiming that Arius perfectly embodies apostolic teaching or that Nicaea is a wholesale departure from it. Instead, he observes that the articulation of Trinitarian orthodoxy at Nicaea represented a refinement and resolution of theological disputes that had long been simmering.

    Hart is pointing out that figures like Eusebius had to adapt their theological frameworks in response to the Nicene settlement, reflecting the evolving nature of doctrinal understanding. This does not imply that Hart rejects the Nicene formulation as a valid expression of Christian faith; rather, it underscores his recognition that theological clarity often arises through historical and doctrinal development. Hart simply explores the diversity of early Christian thought without endorsing Arianism as the definitive interpretation of the apostolic faith. Hart’s own theological commitments remain firmly rooted in the Nicene tradition, even as he critiques certain ways in which that tradition is sometimes presented or understood.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    Slim - We should just start spreading that AQ believes Arianism tbh... because that is what he is doing to Hart.. Maybe then he will learn to not be so dishonest.

    in fact if you can, contact Hart and link him to AQ's posts - I would love to see his response to these outlandish assertations of what he "believes" - Then AQ can publicly be outed as a fraud and a liar - and hopefully teach him a lesson on lying.

    (I haven't yet found an email address for him - haven't had time to look)

    AQ clearly hasn't watched the video as he literally said it could be rendered "a god" - explicitly.. But AQ doesn't like this, so doesn't dare watch the video.

    How dishonest can one person be, simply reading what Hart says he says:


    rather, we have to rely on orthography and typography, using the difference between an uppercase or lowercase g to indicate the distinction between God and [a] god.

    Keyword is "rely" in this paragraph. - because we don't distinguish between the specific noun types.. AQ quote mining again.

    AQ says: "Hart does not imply that the Logos is merely "a god" or a derivative divine agency. Instead, he emphasizes that the qualitative use of "θεός" signals the Logos' participation in the divine essence while maintaining a distinction from "God" as the Father."

    Hart says:

    "however, θεός (theos)... could be used of any divine being, however finite: a god or a derivative divine agency, say, or even a divinized mortal.”"

    No he doesnt imply it - he EXPLICITLY states it, so your right he doesn't imply it, he 1 ups you.

    We should also note AQ has cut some of this out - full quote please AQ

    and you forgot this bit:
    "God in his full transcendence is always ho theos; and the crucial importance of the difference between this and the inarticular theos is especially evident at 10:34–36. Most important of all, this distinction imbues the conclusion of the twentieth chapter with a remarkable theological significance, for it is there that Christ, now risen from the dead, is explicitly addressed as ho theos (by the apostle Thomas). Even this startling profession, admittedly, left considerable room for argument in the early centuries as to whether the fully divine designation was something conferred upon Christ only after the resurrection"

    "Hart does not endorse the New World Translation’s “a god”, because they fail to recognize the theological context and nuance." - Where does he say this? quote him verbatim saying this exact thing. He literally says it CAN be rendered "a god"

    No he does NOT endorse NWT specifically, but literally if your mind can comprehend the video Slimboyfat linked - he says "a god" IS A POSSILE RENDERING.

    you forgot to BOLD this bit - AQ

    "whereas I confine myself entirely to lowercase letters to indicate where the Greek speaks only of θεός (theos) without the article; but, to make the matter more confusing, I have indicated three uses of the word without article (vv. 6, 12, and 13), all concerning the relation between the divine and the created, in all small capitals, to indicate that it is not clear in these instances whether the distinction in forms is still operative, and whether the inarticular form of the noun is being used simply of God as related to creatures through his Logos. "


  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    There is nothing anywhere in those long quotations where Hart advocates for the traditional rendering “the Word was God” as you claimed. It’s as if you think if you use enough words the point will get lost.

    Hart’s statement on the translation of John 1:1 in his book Atheist Delusions was as follows:

    "As a general rule, the 'articular' form ho Theos—literally, 'the God'—was a title reserved for God Most High or God the Father, while only the 'inarticular' form theos was used to designate this secondary divinity. This distinction, in fact, was preserved in the prologue to John, whose first verse could justly be translated as: 'In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was a god.'"

    Hart is opposed to using the adjective “divine”, and he is open to either “god” or “a god” (compare also his translation of John 10.33). In his own translation of John 1.1 he opted for “the Logos was god”. Before you focus on the word “could” in the above quotation, as you inevitably will, in another attempt to distort what he said, it’s notable that he nowhere says that the verse “could justly” be translated “the Word was God”, much less that it is to be preferred. He nowhere:

    affirms that the grammatical and theological context of John 1:1 supports the traditional rendering, “the Word was God.”

    as you earlier claimed. In fact he wrote, translated, and now interviewed arguing the opposite of that. It’s pure mischief to claim he meant the opposite of what he wrote, translated, and said, just because you find it inconvenient.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    You both forget that David Bentley Hart is an Eastern Orthodox, and he explicitly writes that he does not question the truth of Nicene-Constantinopolitan theology, nor does he imply with his translation solution that John 1:1c denies the identity of the quiddity of the Father and the Son, he only claims that he uses a typological distinction to indicate that in his view the full deity of the Son had not yet been fully revealed at that time. The NWT's rendering ("a god") is understood to be an explicit and definitive denial of the identity of quiddity. Hart does acknowledge the grammatical possibility of translating καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος as “a god,” but he does not advocate for it as theologically or contextually accurate. His discussion of this possibility is descriptive, reflecting the Greek syntax, but he explicitly critiques interpretations like the NWT for missing John's theological intent. Hart explicitly states:

    “Some other scholars have chosen to render the inarticular form of theos as ‘a divine being,’ but this seems wrong to me on two counts: first, if that were all the evangelist were saying, he could have used the perfectly serviceable Greek word theios; and, second, the text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos, not merely some sort of association between ‘God proper’ and ‘a divine being.’”

    Thus, while he concedes that "a god" is a grammatical possibility, Hart rejects this rendering because it fails to capture the Logos’ participation in divine essence and its unity with the Father. The phrase “clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity” decisively rules out a translation that reduces the Logos to a subordinate or derivative deity. Hart's statement that θεός (without the article) "could be used of any divine being" is just a general linguistic observation about Greek usage, not an endorsement of such a meaning in John 1:1c. Hart explicitly confines his remarks about the Logos' divinity to John's theological framework, where:

    1. The Logos’ divinity is qualitative—expressing its nature rather than identifying it as a separate deity or lesser divine being.
    2. John does not describe the Logos as "a god" in the sense of a distinct or subordinate entity but affirms its continuity of divinity with God the Father.

    Hart underscores this in his commentary:

    “The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos, not merely some sort of association between ‘God proper’ and ‘a divine being.’”

    This rules out any interpretation that reduces the Logos to a derivative divinity. The quote from Atheist Delusions—“could justly be translated as: ‘In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was a god’”—is not an advocacy but an acknowledgment of grammatical possibilities. Hart's own rendering in his translation of the New Testament is "the Logos was god" (lowercase), not "a god." This reflects his view that the Logos' divinity is qualitative and avoids the theological problems of subordination implied by “a god.” Hart himself critiques "a god" (in an Arian-JW-NWT sense) as a misleading translation:

    “If that were all the evangelist were saying, he could have used the perfectly serviceable Greek word theios.”

    The inclusion of “a god” as a possible rendering in Hart’s descriptive analysis does not equal endorsement. His nuanced approach to lowercase "god" underscores the Logos’ divine essence without conflating it with God the Father (ho theos), but it explicitly rejects interpretations like the NWT’s henotheistic implications. While Hart does not adopt the traditional rendering word-for-word, he does affirm its theological substance. Hart's rendering, "the Logos was god," aligns with the qualitative interpretation of θεός found in traditional Trinitarian theology. The lowercase "god" reflects the Logos' divine nature without equating the Logos to God the Father in a way that might suggest modalism. Importantly, Hart recognizes the climactic revelation of Jesus as ὁ θεός (ho theos) in John 20:28:

    “The withholding of the full revelation of Christ as ho theos, God in the fullest sense, until Thomas confesses him as such in the light of Easter, must be seen as an intentional authorial tactic.”

    This reinforces the traditional theological reading: the Logos is fully divine and revealed as such in the resurrection. While Hart does not explicitly name the New World Translation, but he rejects its premise by affirming that:

    1. The absence of the article before θεός in John 1:1c signals qualitative predication, not indefiniteness.
    2. John 1:1c asserts continuity of divinity between the Logos and God the Father, ruling out interpretations that treat the Logos as a separate or subordinate deity.

    Hart states:

    “The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos.”

    This continuity is incompatible with the Jehovah's Witnesses' henotheistic interpretation, which introduces a lesser deity (anathema to John’s monotheism). Additionally, Hart critiques translations that fail to grasp the qualitative use of θεός:

    “Some other scholars have chosen to render the inarticular form of theos as ‘a divine being,’ but this seems wrong to me… The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos.”

    This is a clear rejection of the theological framework behind the NWT’s "a god."

    Hart situates the Arian controversy within the broader historical and theological development of early Christianity but does not endorse Arian theology. His acknowledgment of pre-Nicene diversity does not equate to affirming Arianism as “apostolic faith.” Instead, Hart recognizes the Council of Nicaea as a doctrinal clarification, refining the Church’s understanding of the Logos' relationship to the Father. Hart’s theological commitments remain Nicene, as evidenced by his rejection of subordinate or derivative interpretations of the Logos. He explicitly affirms the Logos’ continuity of divinity with the Father and its full revelation as ὁ θεός (ho theos) in John 20:28.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    For one thing, the term logos really had, by the time the Gospel was written, acquired a metaphysical significance that “Word” cannot possibly convey; and in places like Alexandria it had acquired a very particular religious significance as well.
    For the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo, for instance, it referred to a kind of “secondary divinity,” a mediating principle standing between God the Most High and creation. In late antiquity it was assumed widely, in pagan, Jewish, and Christian circles, that God in his full transcendence did not come into direct contact with the world of limited and mutable things, and so had expressed himself in a subordinate and economically “reduced” form “through whom” (δι᾽ αὐτοῦ [di’ avtou]) he created and governed the world. It was this Logos that many Jews and Christians believed to be the subject of all the divine theophanies of Hebrew scripture.


    Come on guys, he is laying out exactly what I've been saying. This is not the Trinity nor is it the WT.

    The later Arianism, as I understand it, was much closer to second power theology. Arian asserted that Logos was God as a somewhat limited aspect of God. IMO the sole distinction is that for Arian (and all proto-orthodox Christians by then) the Logos had acquired complete humanity as well as autonomy and entity. How closely this reflects the Johannine prologue is a matter of question depending upon the degree of temporality/historicity intended by the Gospel writer/s.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    Hart explicitly states:

    “Some other scholars have chosen to render the inarticular form of theos as ‘a divine being,’ but this seems wrong to me on two counts: first, if that were all the evangelist were saying, he could have used the perfectly serviceable Greek word theios; and, second, the text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos, not merely some sort of association between ‘God proper’ and ‘a divine being.’”

    - this is on the subject "a divine being" NOT "a god" - and theois is in this quote aswell, Where Hart gets this opinion. "a god" is not even mentioned in your quoted paragraph (see also Slims quote.)

    "

    he text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos.”

    This is a clear rejection of the theological framework behind the NWT’s "a god."" - this is you reading into the text as he has explicitly said its a possible rendering and hasn't outright rejected it. unlike yourself who cant even admit its a possible rendering when I challenged you on it earlier in this very thread, you rather went on your normal theologically motivated rant. Hart is more credible to his own statements than your reinterpretation that doesnt suit your agenda..

    "Hart states:

    “The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos.”

    This continuity is incompatible with the Jehovah's Witnesses' henotheistic interpretation, which introduces a lesser deity (anathema to John’s monotheism)" - proof you haven't watched the video.. else you would know Harts position on this.

    Funny how he doesn't say the angels being "gods" are "metaphorical" - they are NOT to be worshipped, but they are "gods"

    By "lesser deity" Do you mean "lesser god"? or "competing god" the latter is henotheism the former is not (Monotheism to John is NOT your monotheism AQ - that is academic consensus)

    "henotheistic interpretation" - your interpretation and placing things on other sects that is not entirely true.. everyone knows this except you.

    "His acknowledgment of pre-Nicene diversity does not equate to affirming Arianism as “apostolic faith.” Instead, Hart recognizes the Council of Nicaea as a doctrinal clarification" - direct quote, he actually says quite the opposite to what your claiming.

    "Hart critiques translations that fail to grasp the qualitative use of θεός" - Hart mentions nothing of "qualiative"

    infact doing a quick scan, then running a quick "CTRL + F" search (to double check) shows the only one to mention the word is you (13/14 (times on page 36) the one exception being me, quoting you). there is no occurrence of that word in ANY of your quotes from Hart.

    "He explicitly affirms the Logos’ continuity of divinity with the Father and its full revelation as ὁ θεός (ho theos) in John 20:28." - he also explicitly says -

    "or it is there that Christ, now risen from the dead, is explicitly addressed as ho theos (by the apostle Thomas). Even this startling profession, admittedly, left considerable room for argument in the early centuries as to whether the fully divine designation was something conferred upon Christ only after the resurrection"

    I would put this statement down to you not being very honest or presenting evidence as a foregone conclusion (Which a lot of it is NOT, infact quite the opposite), while not being very accurate

    (ironically: quote mining)

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    You seem to forget you are not the only authority on the internet to explain other peoples beliefs (everyone is a trinitarian apparently - catholic trinitarian)
    & that there are people who don't just seek to prove a trinity (Hart) and can do honest scholarship and base their beliefs on evidence (Hart)

    - unlike yourself, you have proven yourself to be quite biased and not evidence based... rather theologically motivated and cant answer simple questions that are directed at you, you would rather go on theological rants "making" the same "points" over and over... why? no need - We aren't sheep, we don't have terrible memory's - trinitarian theology is NOT infallible.. We do get it, you rather don't take the time or effort to understand our different interpretations. (rather lump into category's that are irrelevant or just dismiss anything that doesn't suit your agenda - evidence or not.)

    ironically on the wikipedia article for "henotheism" we have this interesting source:
    https://www.google.co.nz/books/edition/Canaan_and_Israel_in_Antiquity/2rnyjxLHy-QC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Anat-Yahu++Yahweh&pg=PA248&printsec=frontcover

    (Which you will not doubt deny - but you have no credibility left, so Good luck with that)

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Hart himself would better fit the label of Christian Mystic. His God is arrived at through:

    ....infused contemplation, with real constancy of will and a patient openness to grace, suffering states of both dereliction and ecstasy with the equanimity of faith, hoping but not presuming, so as to find whether the spiritual journey, when followed in earnest, can disclose its own truthfulness…

    Being in this state of mind, he is more open to the earliest character of Christianity. A rare sort of Christian today. I therefore understand his attraction to the more mystic Eastern Orthodox church, but technically he doesn't parrot their Christology either.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Blotty

    The JWs and the NWT mean precisely by their rendering of John 1:1c that it means "a god" in the very sense of Psalm 82 and Exodus 7:1, so according to their interpretation John 1:1c explicitly denies the identity of the quiddity between the Father and the Son, while Hart merely states that Scripture does not yet clearly assert it here in his opinion. Hart’s rejection of “a divine being” inherently applies to the broader category of interpretations that diminish the Logos’ divinity, including the rendering “a god.” This is clear from Hart’s explicit statement that theios could have been used if John’s intent was merely to convey something akin to “a god” or “a divine being.” Hart states:

    “If that were all the evangelist were saying, he could have used the perfectly serviceable Greek word theios.”

    This critique applies to both “a divine being” and “a god,” as both reduce the Logos to a derivative or subordinate divine entity. Hart’s point is that the absence of theios and the choice of theos indicates something more profound—namely, the Logos’ participation in the divine essence, not a mere association or subordination. What Hart acknowledges is simply a theoretic grammatical possibility due to the anarthrous predicate construction in Greek, but he explicitly rejects it as a theologically and contextually valid interpretation in John 1:1c. He critiques such renderings as failing to capture John’s theological framework, particularly the continuity of divinity between the Logos and God the Father. Hart states:

    “The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos, not merely some sort of association between ‘God proper’ and ‘a divine being.’”

    This “continuity of divinity” rules out the idea of the Logos as “a god” in the sense of a separate or lesser deity. While Hart discusses grammatical possibilities, his theological conclusions decisively reject interpretations like “a god” or “a divine being.”

    While Hart may not use the term “qualitative” explicitly, his arguments align precisely with the concept of qualitative predication as understood in Greek grammar and theology. Hart emphasizes that John 1:1c expresses the nature or essence of the Logos as divine, rather than identifying the Logos as a distinct or subordinate deity. This aligns with the qualitative interpretation widely supported by biblical scholars, such as Daniel Wallace and Harner. Hart’s explanation reflects this qualitative understanding:

    “The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos.”

    The absence of the definite article before θεός (theos) in John 1:1c is grammatically significant and reflects the qualitative nature of the predicate, a principle supported by linguistic analysis (e.g., Colwell’s Rule). Hart’s theological reasoning directly corresponds to this grammatical observation, even if he does not use the technical term “qualitative.”

    Monotheism means that there is one God and no other deity (in the ontological sense), as stated in the first half of the Muslim Shahada. All other beings, creatures, are infinitely distant from the Creator, and there are no other beings outside of the one God for whom the word "god" can be used in the proper sense. The reference to Canaan and Israel in Antiquity is irrelevant to the specific discussion of Hart’s interpretation of John 1:1. The term “henotheism” applies to ancient Near Eastern contexts, where multiple gods might be acknowledged while one deity is considered supreme. However, John’s Gospel is rooted in Second Temple Jewish monotheism, which affirms the uniqueness of Yahweh. Attempts to apply “henotheism” to John’s theology or Hart’s interpretation misunderstand the distinctiveness of Johannine monotheism and the theological intent of the prologue. Hart affirms that John’s Gospel integrates the Logos into the divine identity, consistent with Jewish monotheism, rather than adopting a polytheistic or henotheistic framework. It is not surprising that in order to be an Arian, one must also revert to the henotheism of the First Temple era.

    While it is true that Johannine monotheism includes the Logos within the divine identity, Hart—and the majority of biblical scholars—recognize that John’s Gospel remains firmly rooted in Jewish monotheism. Hart emphasizes the Logos’ continuity of divinity with the Father, not a polytheistic framework. He explicitly rejects any reading of John 1:1c that would suggest a henotheistic interpretation (i.e., a hierarchy of gods). Hart critiques interpretations that reduce the Logos to “a divine being” or “a god” precisely because they conflict with John’s monotheistic theology:

    “The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos.”

    The academic consensus does not support the idea that John’s monotheism is henotheistic or polytheistic. Instead, it affirms a Christological monotheism, where the Logos participates in the one divine essence. Hart acknowledges that early Christians debated the interpretation of John 20:28, but this historical observation does not negate the significance of Thomas addressing Jesus as ὁ θεός (ho theos). Hart states that John 20:28 represents the culmination of the Gospel’s theological trajectory:

    “The withholding of the full revelation of Christ as ho theos, God in the fullest sense, until Thomas confesses him as such in the light of Easter, must be seen as an intentional authorial tactic.”

    While some early Christians debated whether Jesus’ divine designation was conferred post-resurrection or was eternal, Hart’s own position aligns with the Nicene understanding: the Logos is fully divine and eternally so. This is consistent with Hart’s broader affirmation of the Logos’ continuity of divinity with the Father. Hart does not need to explicitly name the New World Translation to reject its theological premise. By affirming the Logos’ continuity of divinity with the Father and rejecting interpretations like “a divine being,” Hart implicitly critiques any rendering, including the NWT’s “a god,” that introduces a subordinate or separate deity. Hart explicitly states:

    “The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos, not merely some sort of association between ‘God proper’ and ‘a divine being.’”

    The NWT’s “a god” rendering undermines this continuity and conflicts with John’s monotheistic theology. Hart’s rejection of “a divine being” applies equally to “a god,” as both fail to capture the Logos’ full participation in divine essence. Hart’s discussion of θεός (theos) as applied to beings other than God (e.g., angels) reflects a general linguistic observation about Greek usage, not an endorsement of polytheism. Notice that in the Greek biblical texts, no one is ever referred to as “theos,” even in John 10:34, just because it is a translation. In John’s Gospel, the Logos is not described as a “god” in the sense of an angelic or derivative being but as fully participating in the divine essence. Hart explicitly distinguishes the Logos from any subordinate or created entity:

    Angels or beings described as “gods” in other contexts (e.g., Psalm 82:6) from the First Temple era are not ontologically equivalent to the Logos in John’s theology. Hart’s recognition of the term’s broader usage does not imply that the Logos is merely one among many “gods.”Hart acknowledges the diversity of pre-Nicene theological views, but this does not equate to affirming Arianism as “apostolic faith.” Hart’s discussion situates Arianism within the historical development of doctrine but does not endorse its conclusions. He explicitly affirms the Nicene understanding of the Logos’ full divinity and its continuity with the Father. Hart does not reject Trinitarian theology; he affirms the Logos' continuity with the Father and participates in the divine essence, as evidenced in his commentary on John 1:1c. Hart’s scholarship reflects his commitment to theological nuance, and he openly critiques readings that reduce the Logos to "a god" or a derivative divine agency. Hart states:

    “The text clearly means to assert some kind of continuity of divinity between God the Father and the Logos.”

    This is consistent with Nicene theology, not Arianism. This demonstrates that Hart’s scholarship is evidence-based and grounded in a nuanced understanding of Johannine theology, and that Hart’s scholarship does not support interpretations that fragment Johannine monotheism or diminish the Logos’ divine essence. While his translation avoids Nicene terminology, his conclusions align with the substance of Nicene doctrine, particularly in rejecting interpretations like that the Logos is merely "a god" in the very sense of Psalm 82 or Exodus 7:1 like the JWs assert. Hart’s nuanced discussion of early Christian theology includes a recognition of pre-Nicene diversity. However, he does not endorse every interpretation as equally valid or coherent. Hart explicitly critiques readings like “a god” that fail to account for the Logos’ continuity of divinity with God the Father.

    You misrepresent Hart’s arguments by conflating grammatical possibilities with theological endorsement and misinterpreting Hart’s broader theological commitments. Hart explicitly rejects interpretations like “a god” that diminish the Logos’ divinity or continuity with the Father. His nuanced translation and commentary affirm the Logos’ full participation in the divine essence, consistent with traditional Nicene theology. The New World Translation’s “a god” rendering fails to account for John’s theological intent, and Hart’s rejection of similar interpretations is clear throughout his work.

    I have not claimed to be the sole authority on theology or interpretation. My arguments are grounded in a careful analysis of David Bentley Hart’s writings, broader biblical scholarship, and historical theology. What I aim to do is accurately present Hart’s position based on his own words, avoiding misrepresentation or bias. Furthermore, expertise in any field requires a rigorous understanding of sources and the ability to interpret them in context. Dismissing an argument as "biased" without addressing its content does not undermine the evidence presented. Hart’s own scholarship supports the idea of the Logos’ divine continuity with God the Father, a position consistent with traditional Christian theology, even if his interpretive method is unconventional.

    Bias is not demonstrated by simply holding a theological position; it is demonstrated by the selective use or distortion of evidence. My arguments engage directly with Hart’s writings and the broader scholarly context, demonstrating how his views on John 1:1c align with traditional theological principles, even if expressed differently. Accusing someone of bias without addressing the specific points they raise does not constitute a valid rebuttal. I have consistently provided evidence from Hart’s works to support my interpretation, while your claim relies on assumptions rather than engagement with Hart’s text.

    No argument has been made here that Trinitarian theology is "infallible." The discussion is centered on accurately interpreting Hart’s views and assessing their theological implications. Hart himself acknowledges the complexities of Trinitarian development and how early Christians grappled with articulating the relationship between the Logos and God the Father. However, Hart ultimately affirms the Logos’ divine continuity with the Father, a central tenet of Nicene Trinitarianism.


    @peacefulpete

    It is true that logos carries a rich metaphysical significance in Hellenistic thought, particularly as employed by philosophers like Philo. However, the claim that “Word cannot possibly convey” its meaning is overstated. The Johannine use of logos builds upon its philosophical and religious connotations but transforms it to articulate a distinctively Christian theology of the Logos as fully divine and incarnate. Philo’s logos represents a mediating principle, a secondary divinity subordinate to God. John’s Logos, by contrast, is not merely a mediator but God Himself (theos), fully participating in the divine essence while distinct from the Father. John 1:1 explicitly states, “καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος” (and the Word was God), affirming the Logos’ divine nature. While John’s Gospel reflects awareness of Hellenistic and Jewish thought, its primary framework remains Jewish monotheism. The Logos is not a "secondary divinity" as in Philo but is fully God, as later affirmed by Nicene theology. This is evident in John’s progression from the divine nature of the Logos in 1:1 to the climactic confession of Jesus as ho theos (God) in 20:28.Hart himself recognizes this distinction, noting that while the term logos had various meanings in late antiquity, John’s prologue redefines it within a Christian theological framework. The Johannine Logos is not merely a derivative or subordinate being but is fully divine.

    While it is true that late antiquity emphasized God’s transcendence, the Johannine prologue explicitly challenges the idea that God cannot engage directly with creation. The central message of John 1:14 is the Incarnation: “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” This is a radical departure from Philo’s Logos or any intermediary figure in pagan or Jewish thought.John’s Gospel affirms that the Logos is not merely a distant principle or a “reduced” form of God but God Himself, who enters the world in a concrete and personal way. This undermines the claim that John’s Logos reflects the common late antique assumption of divine remoteness.

    While some early Christians and Jewish thinkers identified the Logos with the divine presence in theophanies, John’s Gospel goes beyond this interpretation. The Logos in John is not merely the agent of theophanies but the incarnate God who reveals the Father directly. John 1:18 declares:

    “No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.”

    This verse establishes that the Logos, as the only begotten God (monogenēs theos), uniquely reveals the Father, surpassing the role of theophanic mediation. Hart affirms this point by noting the Logos’ ultimate identification with ho theos in John 20:28.

    "Second power theology," as explored in Second Temple Judaism, refers to concepts of God’s Word, Wisdom, or Name as expressions of His power, but these were not necessarily hypostatized as separate beings. Arianism, however, explicitly posited the Logos as a created being, ontologically distinct and subordinate to God. John’s Gospel explicitly rejects the Arian framework by affirming the Logos as divine (theos), not a creature. In John 1:3, the evangelist asserts that “all things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” This excludes the Logos from the category of created beings, placing Him firmly within the divine identity.

    The Johannine prologue transcends temporal or historical limitations by situating the Logos’ existence “in the beginning” (en archē), a phrase deliberately echoing Genesis 1:1. This affirms the Logos’ eternal nature and preexistence, a point incompatible with both Arianism and second power theology, which often imply temporal origination. Hart’s commentary on John 1:1 aligns with this reading, emphasizing the Logos’ eternal relationship with the Father and continuity of divinity.

    While Hart’s writing reflects a contemplative approach to theology, labeling him merely as a "Christian Mystic" risks oversimplification. Hart engages deeply with patristic and scholastic theology, affirming the central tenets of Nicene Christianity, including the Logos’ full divinity. For example, Hart critiques interpretations of John 1:1c like “a divine being” for failing to capture the continuity of divinity between the Father and the Logos. Mysticism and orthodoxy are not mutually exclusive. Hart’s attraction to Eastern Orthodox theology reflects its emphasis on mystery and apophaticism but does not entail a rejection of Nicene Christology.

  • peacefulpete

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit