Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Regarding Phil 2, the message is that the Christ serves as a divine model of humility. That unlike the demiurge Yahweh of Marcionism, or the chief Archon in Gnosticism, he did not attempt to break from his given role as a servant of the Godhead. He voided himself and took the likeness of man. Understood in terms of an emanation of God, the passage makes perfect sense.

    The lines between an extremely anthropomorphic emanation and a fully animate being have been crossed. Even in Philo's logos we sense an identity emerging, Ben Sira has the figure of Wisdom sitting of the throne on the mountaintop which sounds more like a person than a thing.

    Christians were not therefore the first to have made this leap. Going back to the Neoplatonic concept of Emanationism, all things emanated from the Principle/Godhead. It was the objective of all to pursue a reconnection with that Principle, but many actively opposed it.

    In Jewish Hellenism that included the concept of Satan. What was initially thought of as a servant of God, the accuser, in the heavenly court, morphed into a figure of rebellion. The chief archon was held to be such a figure in Gnostic circles and the ideas converged.

    Eph 2:2 :As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the archon of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

    The Pauline writer in Philippians might well be drawing a contrast between the Archon of this world and his idea of Christ. Both were emanations of God, one did not seek more than his given role, the other did.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @peacefulpete

    Philippians 2:6-11 explicitly describes Christ as existing in the morphē of God, a phrase that emphasizes His preexistent divine nature, and never used for any creature in the Bible. This is not the language of an emanation or a subordinate being but of one who shares fully in the divine essence. The statement that Christ "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (harpagmos) does not imply that He was merely a servant of the Godhead who knew His place. Rather, it highlights that, although Christ is equal with God, He did not exploit this equality for His own advantage but humbled Himself in love and obedience. This stands in stark contrast to the portrayal of the "chief Archon" or rebellious figures in Gnosticism, who sought to usurp or resist divine order.

    The attempt to read Philippians 2 through the lens of Neoplatonic emanationism also distorts the passage. Emanationism involves a hierarchical procession of lesser beings from a distant and impersonal source, often with diminishing degrees of divinity. Philippians 2, however, affirms the full divinity of Christ and His intimate relationship with the Father, as seen in John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:15-20. These passages affirm Christ’s role as the Creator of all things, not as an emanated or derivative being. Moreover, the notion of Christ as an emanation is fundamentally incompatible with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which upholds the co-equality and consubstantiality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    The claim that Philippians 2 contrasts Christ with the "Archon of this world" is also problematic. While Ephesians 2:2 does describe a "spirit at work in those who are disobedient," this reference to the "archon of the air" is best understood within the context of Jewish and early Christian demonology, not as a framework for interpreting Christ’s humility in Philippians. The "archon" mentioned in Ephesians represents the devil, a rebellious and fallen creature, whereas Philippians presents Christ as the obedient and self-emptying God-man. These two figures are not parallels or contrasts within the same category but represent entirely different metaphysical realities: Christ as God incarnate and Satan as a created being in rebellion against God.

    Furthermore, the appeal to Philo’s Logos and Ben Sira’s personification of Wisdom to frame Christ as an anthropomorphic emanation misses the mark. Philo's Logos functions more as an intermediary or instrument of creation, not as a fully animate being or a divine person in the Trinitarian sense. Similarly, the personification of Wisdom in Ben Sira and other Jewish wisdom literature is metaphorical, pointing to God’s attributes, not a preexistent being equal with God. In contrast, Philippians 2 presents Christ not as a metaphor or an intermediary but as the incarnate Son of God, who willingly humbled Himself to the point of death for the salvation of humanity.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Philippians 2:6-11 explicitly describes Christ as existing in the morphē of God, a phrase that emphasizes His preexistent divine nature,

    Yep. That is why Philo called Logos, God and creator and image of God and High Priest and Son and Light and eyes of God etc.

    This is not the language of an emanation or a subordinate being but of one who shares fully in the divine essence.

    An emanation is by definition a sharer in divine essence.

    Philo's Logos functions more as an intermediary or instrument of creation, not as a fully animate being or a divine person in the Trinitarian sense.

    You have repeated that line many times now. I agree. Of course, Philo did not have any Trinity doctrine in mind, neither did Paul et al. What I have said in reply is the transition from anthropomorphized emanation to being is already in evidence in Pre-Christian works and Philo. It is my position that the earliest Christians themselves walked that line. Christ was a revelation drawn from OT texts seen through the lens of Hellenized Judaism. He was believed as real as the God he came from. But it was the later generation stories that followed that really cemented the image of a guy walking around Palestine. Did the writer of Mark intend that, I personally don't think so. I believe it was a dramatization of a Christian message of separation from Judaism. Others followed suit, expanding this persona with additional logia (as Hart put it), more fully fleshing out the character.

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    Peacefulpete wrote:

    In Jewish Hellenism that included the concept of Satan. What was initially thought of as a servant of God, the accuser, in the heavenly court, morphed into a figure of rebellion. The chief archon was held to be such a figure in Gnostic circles and the ideas converged.

    Judaism had a very brief Hellenistic period (roughly 323-30 BCE) that was introduced mainly by the invasion of the culture via Alexander the Great’s invasion, but mostly through the influence after his death. It was short lived, dying out due to the failure of the Seleucid attempt to wipe out Judaism by the Hasmoneans via the Maccabean Revolt.

    During the Hellenistic period, Jewish society encountered Greek philosophy and mythology, which includes ideas about demons and cosmic struggles between good and evil. The character of ha Satan or “the Satan” in the book of Job was ideally settled during this time, some suggest, but the concept of Satan in Judaism differs significantly from the Christian depiction.

    Judaism defines Satan primarily as an agent of God, a tester of faith, or a personification of the "evil inclination" within humans. In Judaism, “Satan” can be a person or even God himself, and thus Jews don’t typically portray Satan as an independent, all-powerful force of evil opposed to God.

    Christianity depicts Satan as a fallen angel, a rebellious creature who seeks to oppose God and tempt humans into sin. Satan the Devil is considered an enemy of both God and man, a powerful, malevolent entity with significant autonomy. This is very different from the ha Satan of Hellenistic Jewry.

    It should also be noted that Satan the Devil is not considered an “archon” by mainstream or nominal Christianity. It is even heresy in Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity to use that term for Satan.

    This term originates from the Gnostics and their set of beliefs that the Church Fathers consider anathema. In Gnosticism, archons are considered malevolent, lesser deities that rule over the material world and hinder spiritual enlightenment. Catholics believe Satan is a fallen angel, a creature created by God who rebelled and was cast out of Heaven. He is seen as the source of evil and temptation, but ultimately subordinate to God. While Satan might have influence, the Devil is not a deity or ruler.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Considering how quickly you put that together, I agree with most of it. There was an evolution of Satan from early to late Judaism to early Christianity to Catholicism. The same is true of the Logos concept.

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    Since the Hellenistic period was so short lived in Judaism, Philo's work had no influence, at least for Judaism itself. He did, however, influence Christianity, but not until the Church Father's discovered his work.

    We are not sure if John is discussing Philo, but we are certain that the Church Fathers do when settling the Trinitatian doctrine issue.

    Philo lived between 20 BCE to 40 CE and he was likely using terms based on Judaism to try to influence Jews, but it did not work. If he had been born during the Jewish Enlightenment, that would have different.

    The Jewish Enlightenment, also known as the Haskalah, was an intellectual movement that took place in Central and Eastern Europe from the 1770s to the 1880s.The Haskalah was inspired by the European Enlightenment, but had a Jewish character. Some of Philo's works even came to the fore among Jews during this time, being rediscovered, along with Spinoza's.

    Again, that would have been much different if Philo were born and trying to advance his ideas then.
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @peacefulpete

    Firstly, while you claim that "an emanation is by definition a sharer in divine essence," this conflates the concept of emanation as found in Neoplatonism with the Christian understanding of divine essence. Emanation in Neoplatonism implies a hierarchy of being where successive emanations are progressively less divine and less perfect than their source. This stands in stark contrast to the Christian understanding of Christ as fully God and fully human, consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father. Philippians 2:6 does not describe Christ as an emanation or a lesser divine being but as one who, though existing in the "morphē of God", humbled Himself willingly. The humility described is not ontological diminishment but a voluntary act of self-emptying (kenosis) to assume human nature. This is entirely distinct from Neoplatonic emanationism, which presupposes an involuntary and impersonal diffusion of divine essence.

    Your appeal to Philo’s Logos as evidence for a transition from an “anthropomorphized emanation to being” misses the theological and literary context of both Philo and the New Testament. Philo’s Logos is a conceptual tool, an intermediary through which God interacts with the material world. While Philo ascribes many titles to the Logos (e.g., Son of God, High Priest, and Image of God), he does not describe it as a distinct, personal being in the sense of the Christian understanding of Christ. Instead, Philo’s Logos is a metaphorical and philosophical construct rather than a concrete, incarnate figure. In contrast, the New Testament presents Christ as a real person who took on human nature while retaining His divine essence, as explicitly affirmed in Philippians 2 and other passages such as John 1:1-14 and Colossians 1:15-20.

    The assertion that early Christians “walked the line” between seeing Christ as an anthropomorphized emanation and as a real being is inconsistent with the evidence from the earliest Christian writings. Paul, writing only a few decades after Christ’s death and resurrection, explicitly affirms both the preexistence and incarnation of Christ (e.g., Philippians 2:6-11, Galatians 4:4, Romans 8:3). These affirmations are grounded not in speculative Hellenistic philosophy but in the Old Testament’s portrayal of God’s Wisdom and Word as active in creation and revelation, now fully realized in the person of Christ. The early Christian proclamation (kerygma) was centered on the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth, His death, resurrection, and exaltation, as evidenced by Paul’s letters and the oral traditions they reflect.

    Your claim that the Gospel of Mark represents a "dramatization of a Christian message of separation from Judaism" is speculative and lacks textual support. Mark’s Gospel is deeply rooted in Jewish Scripture and portrays Jesus as the fulfillment of Jewish messianic hopes, not as a figure opposed to Judaism. The narrative assumes the historicity of Jesus as a real person who performed miracles, taught, and ultimately suffered and died. Far from being a mere literary construct, Mark reflects the historical conviction of the earliest Christians that Jesus was the Messiah who had come in the flesh, as affirmed in writings such as 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 and 1 John 4:2.

    Finally, your suggestion that the image of Jesus as a historical figure developed over time through successive embellishments does not align with the robust historical evidence for the early and widespread belief in Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. The earliest Christian writings, including Paul’s letters and the Gospels, present a coherent and consistent portrayal of Jesus as a historical person who is also the divine Son of God. This belief was not the product of later generations but was foundational to the Christian movement from its inception.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Since the Hellenistic period was so short lived in Judaism, ....Judaism had a very brief Hellenistic period

    But yet both of you have said that period was at least 300 years of cultural/political dominance and Hellenization. We all know it was much longer, but even at 300 years, that is hardly a brief/short period.

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    Pete,

    I don't know what you want.

    These are not my personal thoughts or views. They come from every book I've every taught from.

    Alexander the Great didn't live long, Antiochus IV Epiphanes didn't succeed in snuffing out the practice of Judaism, and the Hasmonean dynasty lasted 100 years after the first Chanukah. In fact, the Hasmoneans persecuted Jews who did not accept their form of right-wing Judaism. They even murdered those Jews that did not agree with them.

    That same group that the Hasmoneans were systematically killing rose up when the Herodian family took control under Roman rule. You likely heard of them--the Pharisees.

    So, no, there was not 300 years of Hellenistic control or thought in Judaism.

    You make up things, Pete. That is why people argue with you. I don't care to.

    You're not an academic. You can't read other languages. You make up theories. And you enjoy the fantastic fantasies you create, arguing with people who don't agree with you, talking it personal.

    Nobody can win with you, Pete. To you, it's just you and your views.

    I don't even believe in Jesus.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Well Kaleb lets agree that from among Jews that had adapted to Hellenism, Christianity arose.

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