This post is for AGuest:
AGuest said:
It is with much thought, careful consideration and discussion with my Lord that make this reply to you. It will be my last... here... and elsewhere on this board; however, not because of the questions you pose... but because of where it now puts us. Before I begin, I must say, unfortunately, that may all of the peace that I have wished you... return to me. Also, herein, I may have referred to you as "dear one." Unfortunately, that title may no longer apply. I do not have the... desire, however... to go look for each case and revise it, so I will let it stand. Okay, then:
I am sorry you feel that way about me. I have nothing but love and concern for you.
I realize that you may no longer wish to speak to me, and I can understand that.
However, I am going to ask you a few questions, because I truly am trying to understand what you are saying.
In Jesus Christ's eyes, you are a dear one that He died for (just like all other people), however, I am not sure you have put your faith in the True Jesus Christ that actually died for you -- the only Jesus Christ that can save you or anyone else.
AGuest said
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) What if God had PROMISED that the angel who became Satan would NEVER SIN? (End of Quote)
If God made such a promise, then such angel would never sin.
Exactly. That is my point.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) What if that angel then sinned. (End of Quote)
If God promised that he would not… then the question is moot. Such angel COULD not.
Exactly. That is my point.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Would that not make God a liar? (End of Quote)
It would... but God cannot lie.
Exactly. That is my point.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) You see, God PROMISED that Jesus would NEVER SIN. (End of Quote)
I do not agree, dear UnDf’d. At least, not in the context YOU are stating. You are saying the my Lord did not sin because God promised that he would not, which is not true. God did not promise... He PROPHESIED.
First, I'm going to post the Scriptures where God promised/prophesied that The Messiah would be sinless and that He would sacrifice His Life:
Isaiah 53:4-12 (The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible): Surely He has borne our sicknesses, and He carried our pain; yet we esteemed Him plagued, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have each one turned to his own way; and Jehovah made meet in Him the iniquity of all of us. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, but He did not open His mouth. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a ewe before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from justice; and who shall consider His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; from the transgression of My people, the stroke was to Him. And He appointed Him His grave with the wicked, but He was with a rich man in His death; though He had done no violence, and deceit was not in His mouth. But Jehovah pleased to crush Him, to make Him sick, so that If He should put His soul as a guilt offering, He shall see His seed; He shall prolong His days; and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul; He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge the righteous One, My Servant, shall justify for many, and He shall bear their iniquities. Because of this I will divide to Him with the great, and with the strong He shall divide the spoil; because He poured out His soul to death; and He was counted with those transgressing; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for those transgressing.
No wonder they call Isaiah the "5th Gospel"! Wow, that is an amazing promise/prophecy about Jesus Christ's Sacrifice.
Daniel 9:24: Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
First of all, those Verses said that Christ would do no violence and that He would have no deceit in Him.
Also, those Verses clearly show that Christ was going to Sacrifice Himself and that He was going to bear all of our sins, transgressions, iniquities, wickedness, and errors in His Body, and that He was going to pay the penalty for our sins, and that He was going to suffer the punishment that we deserve [being separated from God in Hell].
There is no way He could have done so if He had sinned!
Just read the following Verses, which show that no sacrifice made to God could have any blemishes:
Leviticus 22:17-25; Deuteronomy 15:21; Deuteronomy 17:1; Malachi 1:8; 1:14.
_____________________________________
So, AGuest, are you saying that a prophecy is not a promise?
If God prophesies that something is going to happen -- it is going to happen. Period. You can call it a prophesy or you can call it a promise -- the results are the same -- it will happen.
For example, if one of God's promises does not come true, then He would be a liar.
The same thing is true for prophecies -- if one of God's prophecies does not come true, then He would be a liar.
God cannot lie.
Actually, I am saying that Jesus Christ did not sin for a couple reasons:
(1) Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh, and God cannot sin; and (2) God promised [and/or prophesied] that Jesus would never sin.
Even if you take (1) out of that equation, and Jesus was not God, then I still see no way that Jesus could have sinned.
Since it is impossible for God to sin, then how could Jesus have sinned? What would have happened had Jesus sinned?
If it had been possible (which I do not believe it was), then I am guessing the entire universe would have collapsed and I don't know what would have happened to God after God sins.
AGuest said:
Thus, I am saying to you that, LIKE JOB, it was the fact that my Lord WOULD not sin… that God could state it as fact. And no, it is not the same thing. When God said to Satan, “Do you see my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth,” was it because God MADE Job like that… that Job COULD not have given in to Satan? Was that not the very reason for Satan’s challenge to God to REMOVE THE HEDGE that God had placed around him?
But, you see, God did not promise or prophesy that Job would not sin, or that Job would remain faithful. God did do that with Jesus.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) If Jesus had sinned, God would have been a liar. (End of Quote)
Which is what his LOYALTY was all about! It was up to HIM... just as it is up to US... to prove that God is NOT a liar. GOD says that there are SOME humans that will NOT put their skin first. Job was one. My Lord was one. We, too, can have that same opportunity. But you are entirely missing the point, of course, which is that was not that my Lord COULD not sin… it was that he WOULD not sin. There is a BIG difference!
So, you are saying that if any Christians today turn away from God, then that proves God is a liar?
So then, how many times throughout history has God been proven a liar, according to you? Because there have been A LOT of unfaithful "Christians" throughout history.
That makes no sense.
The Infinite God's honesty and truthfulness is dependant on what sinful imperfect humans do or do not do?
AGuest said:
Unlike us, Jesus had NO SIN IN HIM
No sin... in his SPIRIT. Which is what I have said to you, more than once. Let me ask you, what did my Lord say to Nathaniel? Of what was he speaking, Nathaniel’s FLESH… or his spirit? It is the same thing, dear one.
So, are you saying that Nathaniel was sinless in the same way that Jesus was?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:), and, unlike us, He had All of the Fullness of His Divine Nature of God dwelling in His Human Body. (End of Quote)
Again, I disagree, for it was not HIS Divine Nature, but that of the Father's, holy spirit. For if he WAS God... and his flesh WAS different... HOW could he be tested... LIKE US... in ALL respects? And that fact that it was a HUMAN body, should help you understand its imperfection in this regard. Were it PERFECT, his flesh would not have experienced what ours does... sickness, pain, suffering... death... so that such test would have been null and void. I find it curious that you did not respond to the verses I referred you to on this subject: Isaiah 7:15, 16 and Hebrews 5:8, 9. Curious indeed.
You err big time on this one.
Jesus was God in the Flesh, however, His Flesh was Perfect Mortal Flesh, the same as Adam's was when God declared that Adam was created GOOD, before Adam sinned.
You AGuest, have just stated that the Human Body Jesus had was imperfect! Unbelievable! So, you have also just declared that Adam's body BEFORE he sinned was imperfect, even though God declared it as GOOD!
Also, you keep asking "If Jesus was God in the Flesh, how could he be tested like us in all respects?"
Well, I've got news for you -- the Scriptures plainly show that Jesus could do things in the Flesh that we will never be able to do!
Jesus, in the Flesh, could read human minds and hearts, which is something only God can do. We will never be able to do so.
Jesus, in the Flesh, was Omniscient and Omnipresent. We will never be able to do that.
Jesus, in the Flesh, kept all of His memories from Eternity in Heaven as God. We will never be able to do that.
Jesus, in the Flesh, FULLY KNEW EVERYTHING about The Father. We will never be able to do that.
So, your argument falls apart completely.
Also, I think I have seen you, AGuest, post before and say that if Jesus could not sin, then He did not have freedom.
Well, then are you claiming that God does not have freedom? Because God cannot sin or lie?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) God cannot sin. (End of Quote)
I absolutely agree. However, what my Lord had LIKE us… was sinFUL flesh, flesh which held in it sin and death (corruption). YOU… unfortunately… misunderstand sin. You also misunderstand who... and what... my Lord was and is. GOD… can NOT die. My Lord… died.
Jesus had the same type of Mortal Human Body as Adam did. So, now, again you are claiming that Adam's body BEFORE he sinned was SINFUL? The same body that God declared as GOOD?
Also, God's Divine Spirit Nature is Immortal.
Are you trying to limit God by saying that God could not take on another Mortal Nature and add it to His Immortal Nature?
Who says that God cannot add a Mortal Human Nature to His Immortal Spirit Nature, and then Sacrifice His Mortal Human Nature?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Jesus was tempted, but He did not and could not sin because HE IS GOD. (End of Quote)
Why tempt someone who cannot BE tempted? What would be the POINT? Would it not have more meaning to try and tempt someone who COULD… but WOULDN’T… give in?
Good questions. I myself do not have all the answers, however, I would like to send you to this Website, which I think offers a very good Scriptural explanation:
http://www.letusreason.org/Doct3.htm
I have seen several Non-Trinitarians claim that Jesus could not have been God, because God cannot be tempted.
Well, according to the following Scriptures, God certainly can be tempted and tested, but God cannot sin:
Matthew 4:7: Jesus said to him [Satan], "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "
It is obvious that God can be tempted, or else why would God have made the Commandment "You shall not tempt God"?
Exodus 17:1-7: At Jehovah's command, the people of Israel left the Sin Desert and moved from place to place. Eventually they came to Rephidim, but there was no water to be found there. So once more the people grumbled and complained to Moses. "Give us water to drink!" they demanded."Quiet!" Moses replied. "Why are you arguing with me? And why are you tempting Jehovah?" But tormented by thirst, they continued to complain, "Why did you ever take us out of Egypt? Why did you bring us here? We, our children, and our livestock will all die!" Then Moses pleaded with Jehovah, "What should I do with these people? They are about to stone me!" Jehovah said to Moses, "Take your shepherd's staff, the one you used when you struck the water of the Nile. Then call some of the leaders of Israel and walk on ahead of the people. I will meet you by the rock at Mount Sinai. Strike the rock, and water will come pouring out. Then the people will be able to drink." Moses did just as he was told; and as the leaders looked on, water gushed out. Moses named the place Massah--"the place of tempting"--and Meribah--"the place of arguing"--because the people of Israel argued with Moses and tempted Jehovah by saying, "Is Jehovah going to take care of us or not?"
Numbers 14:22: because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted Me now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice
Deuteronomy 6:16: You shall not tempt Jehovah your God as you tempted Him in Massah.
Psalm 78:18: They willfully tempted God in their hearts, demanding the foods they craved.
Psalm 78:41: They tempted Him again and again, and provoked the Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 78:56: Yet they tempted and provoked the Most High God, And did not keep His Testimonies,
Psalm 95:8-9: Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness, when your fathers tempted Me, and put Me to the test, though they had seen My work.
Psalm 106:14: But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, And tempted God in the desert.
Isaiah 7:12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I tempt Jehovah!"
Acts 5:9: Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."
Acts 15:10: Now therefore, why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
So, since the Bible shows very clearly that God Almighty can be tempted (but He cannot sin), then, there is no conflict with the Doctrine of the Trinity when Jesus was tempted:
Matthew 16:1: Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and tempting Him [Jesus] asked that He would show them a sign from Heaven.
Matthew 19:3: The Pharisees also came to Him [Jesus], tempting Him, ...
Matthew 22:18: But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you tempt Me, you hypocrites?
Matthew 22:35: Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him [Jesus] a question, tempting Him ...
1st Corinthians 10:9: nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents
Hebrews 2:18: For in that He [Jesus] Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Hebrews 6:3-11: But Christ, the Faithful Son, was in charge of the entire household. And we are God's household, if we keep up our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ. That is why the Holy Spirit says, "Today you must listen to His voice. Don't harden your hearts against Him as Israel did when they rebelled, when they tempted God in the wilderness. There your ancestors tempted Me, even though they saw My miracles for forty years. So I was angry with them, and I said, `Their hearts always turn away from Me. They refuse to do what I tell them.' So in My anger I made a Vow: `They will never enter My place of rest.'"
Hebrews 4:15: For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but [Jesus] was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
AGuest said:
I mean, isn’t THAT the test… OBEDIENCE? If you cannot be DISobedient… how can you prove that you are OBEDIENT?
Well, I believe that when it says Jesus learned obedience, it means He experienced obedience. Before then, He had not experienced obedience, at least not to the same degree as He did as a Human.
Also, since Jesus was 100% Human, that is why the following Verse is in the Bible:
Luke 2:40: And the Child was growing and becoming strong in spirit, being filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
Basically, God learned exactly what it is like to BE a Human, and to experience what a Human experiences.
Believe me, I cannot explain how all that happened, and that is why this Scripture is so very good:
1 Timothy 3:16: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the Flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.
The Bible says it is a MYSTERY -- a wonderful amazing MYSTERY!
It is also a MYSTERY to think about how God has always existed in the past and will always exist in the future, and He never had a beginning, and He was never created.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) He was 100% God and 100% Human. (End of Quote)
He was like Adam: ½ human… terrestrial being… FLESH… which flesh he inherited from Mary, and which flesh sinFUL and thus was able to hold SICKNESS and DEATH… in it… so that such flesh DIED… which PERFECT flesh cannot do - and ½ god… celestial being… SPIRIT… which spirit he received from the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies… just as Adam did... and which spirit, when given, was sinLESS. My Lord kept his spirit so… WITHOUT GUILE... unlike Adam. Thus, upon his resurrection, his flesh, the “befouled garment” was replaced by a SPIRIT BODY… a “clean garment”… or WHITE robe.
So, now you have come right out and said that Adam's body BEFORE he sinned, and Jesus Christ's Human Body, were SINFUL BODIES!
God declared Adam's body VERY GOOD before he sinned -- but you have declared it as SINFUL! I wonder what God thinks about this?
Genesis 1:26-27: And God said, let Us make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. And God created the man in His own Image; in the Image of God He created him. He created them male and female. (Verse 31:) And God saw everything that He had made and behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.
You have said that Jesus Christ's Human Body, which was created directly by the Holy Spirit, was SINFUL and IMPERFECT!
You have called my Lord Jesus Christ's Human Body a “befouled garment”. I wonder what Jesus thinks about that?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) His Human Body was mortal before He died. (End of Quote)
Yes. Mortal. Meaning having an end. SinFUL. Thus… it dies. And yet, God... is and has always been and will always be... IMMORTAL. SinLESS. He does NOT die.
Wrong! Mortal -- meaning it COULD have an end. Mortal DOES NOT mean that it was SINFUL!
Jesus took on a Mortal Human Body, for the purpose of Sacrificing it! It had to be Mortal, or He could not have Sacrificed it. But it certainly WAS NOT SINFUL!
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) That simply means that His Human Body could die. (End of Quote)
Which is what I have stated, I think repeatedly. But had it been sinLESS… it would not… COULD not… have died. For death... is the RESULT... of sin. It is sin's WAGE. No sin... no death. That is why we must be CLEANSED of sin... in order to LIVE. Hear... and get the sense of it.
Unbelievable once again!
Now you are saying that Jesus died because His Body was SINFUL!
WRONG!
Jesus died because He willingly, willfully sacrificed it to The Father for our sins! Jesus' Human Body, Human Soul, and Divine Nature had absolutely NO inherited sin from Adam!
You are trying to claim that Jesus could not take on Human Flesh and willingly sacrifice it without having sinful flesh? I wonder what God thinks about that?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) But, get this -- His Human Body could ONLY DIE IF HE WILLED IT TO HAPPEN! (End of Quote)
Okay, wait a minute… talk about ADDING stuff!! Death... is an ENEMY! Why would my Lord do the will of the ENEMY? Where then is the SACRIFICE? It was NOT my Lord’s will to die! In fact, he SAID, “Father, if it is YOUR will, let this cup pass from me. Yet… NOT WHAT I WILL… but what YOU will.” Ah, nevermind…
Whoa. You have just stated that by Jesus willingly dying, He was doing the will of His ENEMY???
What do you mean "where is the sacrifice"?
It was NOT the will of Jesus to sacrifice His Life????
Jesus disagrees with you - BIG TIME:
Matthew 20:27-28: And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His Life as a Ransom for many."
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) No one, absolutely no one could have taken His Human Life from Him without Him willing it. (End of Quote)
Again, you err. Only God could stop it, unless my Lord changed his mind and chose NOT to give himself as a sacrifice.
Job 1:12; 2:6; Matthew 25:53
I will let my Lord Jesus explain it:
John 10:14-18: I am the Good Shepherd; and I know My own, and I am known by My own. Just as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father; and I lay down My Life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there shall be one flock and one Shepherd. Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My Life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This Command I have received from My Father."
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Just for the record, AGuest, I did know what HalleluJah meant. I was giving a "double-praise" to JAH. (End of Quote)
But how can that be? We don’t PRAISE the same God, right? And yet, I praised JAH and do praise Him. Who is it that you praised when you said "hallelujah"?
I worship The Father of Jesus Christ, and I worship Jesus Christ, and I worship The Holy Spirit. I have no idea who you worship.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Where on earth have I ever said John lied? (End of Quote)
You implied it by disregarding 1 John 2:2, where John writes: “My little children, I am writing you these things that you may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone DOES commit a sin, we have… A HELPER (the Greek says “Paraclete”) with the Father… JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, a righteous one.”
Yet, YOU say that my Lord is NOT the “helper”… the Paraclete.
I never once said that Jesus is not a "Helper" ["Paraclete"]. Jesus certainly is the Helper described at 1 John 2:2.
What I said is that Jesus IS NOT the "Helper" ["Paraclete"] described at John Chapters 14, 15, and 16.
Where does the Bible say that there is only one "Paraclete"? It doesn't. That is why Jesus said that "ANOTHER Paraclete" was coming.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I will let Jesus explain what happens when someone wicked dies - I think He disagrees with you: (End of Quote)
Let's see...
Luke 16:19-31: "Now there was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen, enjoying himself splendidly every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores, who had been placed at his gate, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. And even the dogs came and would lick his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things, but now here he is comforted and you are suffering. And besides all this, between us and you a great gulf has been fixed, so that those who desire to cross over from here to you are not able, nor may those from there cross over to us.' Then he said, 'Therefore I beseech you, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if someone from the dead should go to them, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded should one rise from the dead.' "
And you have not yet received UNDERSTANDING of this illustration. May I explain it to you, please? Thank you! The "Rich" Man are those… who are having their reward IN FULL… now... whether by means of money or by means of knowledge (of spiritual truth, which they either hoard or sell)... those who have... but do not give... FREE. Is it literally those rich in money? No. Can’t be. Why? Two reasons: (1) Because some rich people are QUITE generous... and do what they can to help those "less fortunate" than they; and (2) because although my Lord did say that it would easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a rich man into heaven… he ALSO said that ALL things are possible with God. That means even the RICH… can get into the kingdom of God.
Now, why was the Rich Man suffering? Was he in some tormenting place? No, he was in Hades. And Hades in not a place of torment, for death AND Hades not only “give up those dead in THEM,” but are themselves hurled into the Lake of Fire… the place of torment.
Wrong. The Hades where the Rich Man went was a temporary real place of torment where unsaved souls go to, however, the Lake of Fire is a permanent real place of torment where unsaved souls and bodies go for eternity.
AGuest said:
The Rich Man was SUFFERING… because where HE was… there was NO HOLY SPIRIT! No… LIVING WATER! Thus… he was PARCHED! THIRSTY… but unable to DRINK! Why? Because the “Rock-Mass” from which “living water” FLOWS… my LORD… was not IN that place. The Rich Man… knowing that LIVING WATER is what refreshes and “bubbles up” in us to “impart everlasting life,” wanted only A DROP! Had he received ONLY A DROP… he could have LIVED. But he knew it was hopeless. So, he asked that someone be sent to warn his brothers.
Exactly.
AGuest said:
Lazarus, on the other hand, depicts the “poor, the hungry, the sick, and lame”… physically, in many cases... and SPIRITUALLY in some cases… who only want a CRUMB... and so must put their TRUST in JAH, the God of the poor and broken-hearted... by means of putting their FAITH in CHRIST… and so THEY are taken to “the bosom position of Abraham,” where they “eat and drink” at his table. Eat and drink WHAT? “True food” and “true drink”… the flesh and blood of my Lord… the leaves of the Tree of Life, which tree IS my Lord… and “water”… his blood… HOLY SPIRIT… which issues forth from HIM… from his throne.
Exactly.
I think I agree with that.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I believe Christ, I do not believe people claiming to hear Christ's voice. (End of Quote)
How can you believe the One whom you cannot HEAR? In truth, you DON'T believe Christ, for Christ himself SAID:
“… he that enters through the door is shepherd of the sheep.
The doorkeeper opens to this one and the sheep LISTEN TO
HIS VOICE, and he calls his own sheep BY NAME and leads
them out. When he has got all his own out, HE goes before
them, and the sheep follow HIM… because… they know HIS
VOICE. A STRANGER they will by NO means follow… because
... they do NOT know the VOICE of strangers. I am the fine
shepherd and I know my sheep… and my sheep... know ME.
My sheep LISTEN TO MY VOICE, and I know them and they
… follow ME.”
Just as my Father said, "This is my Son; listen... to HIM."
How can you, AGuest, believe in Jesus, but reject His Inspired New Testament and His Inspired Gospel?
What takes more faith, believing in a voice that you hear, or believing in an Inspired Written Book from 2000 years ago?
I would have absolutely no problem believing that your voice was the voice of Christ, IF your voice did not contradict just about everything in the Bible, and IF your voice was not blaspheming the very Person that you claim the voice to be.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) You also said that the "only one who is tortured forever and ever is Satan". Where is that found in the Bible? (End of Quote)
I must apologize. I did forget about the False Prophet, the Wild Beast and those who worship them and receive the Beast’s mark. My error, truly. I was thinking of those in context with our discussion, wherein you asked me how ones could be saved. The False Prophet and Wild Beast are groups of people - Satan is an individual - and my mind was on individuals. Thus, I referred to Rahab, versus, say, the Sodomites. Again, my error.
I understand, no problem. I have made several mistakes, and unfortunately, I am sure I will make more, until I am with the Lord in Heaven.
I believe that the Wild Beast is The Antichrist (one person definitely), and I believe that The False Prophet may be the Pope (one person definitely).
Satan is trying to create an Anti-Trinity of Satan, The Antichrist, and The False Prophet.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I'm sorry, but I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ actually speaks to people using voices in this time period. (End of Quote)
Many felt that same way during the time of the Prophets. Certainly there were those who felt so during my Lord's days in the flesh. I pity your lack of faith. Truly. For you’ve been misled into believing that he doesn’t by those who give more credence to DEMONS… than to God and His Son. Those who say DEMONS can speak to us… and apparently do… but not God and not Christ? But I ask you: DEMONS can speak to the children of Israel… to the SONS OF GOD… but God HIMSELF can’t and doesn’t? Not even through Christ? You have been misled. Again, I pity you your lack of faith, for when the Son of Man arrives WILL he really find faith in the earth?
First of all, I should have worded my statement differently.
I never said that Jesus CAN'T speak to people. I believe that Jesus certainly CAN, if He chooses to, speak to whoever He wants to, just as did with the Apostle Paul.
However, I do not believe He does so with most Christians, and I KNOW FOR A FACT, that He would NEVER contradict His own Inspired New Testament! The Lord has revealed that to me from His Scriptures.
I would not be doubting you, IF your voice was not contradicting the Bible, and IF your voice was not blaspheming Jesus and God.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Jesus speaks to us in His Written Word. (End of Quote)
"God speaks to us... by means of a Son." For that Son IS His Word. These statement was written LONG after my Lord had left the earth... by those who knew it to be true, long before they wrote it and when they had no gospels to refer to about it. And my Lord... speaks to us… from the heavens... the kingdom of God... which is in our midst. Well, for some of us. And the Bible that YOU put so much faith in… says these very things. Hebrews 1:2; 12:25
God speaks to us through (1) His Son, (2) His Spirit, (3) His Inspired Holy Bible.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I also do not believe that the "gifts of the Spirit" [speaking in tongues, healing, etc] are still the signs of being a True Christian. (End of Quote)
Talk about adhering to the false teachings of the WTBTS! If you believe as you have said (and I no longer find it hard to know that you do...), then you are not reading your Bible even as YOU profess you do. For how does one KNOW one has received such spirit… if one does not possess the GIFTS of it? True, one may not possess ALL of such gifts, and not all of them are manifest in the FLESH... and but certainly, one would possess at least ONE of them and be given SOME evidence of such possession. Yes? At least, that’s what Paul said would occur. Perhaps it is speaking in tongues. Perhaps it is wisdom and knowledge. Perhaps, like me... it is discerning inspired utterances (hearing spirits).
And Joel prophesied one of these gifts, prophesying, would actually become MORE abundant, did he not? That’s because such gifts have NOT been done away with entirely, dear one, but only PARTIALLY… as Paul (?) wrote… for that which is COMPLETE… that in which the Spirit is COMPLETE… my LORD… has not yet arrived.
Oh boy, so now I know even more of the truth about AGuest -- she is a "Charismatic" -- she believes that "speaking in tongues" and "faith healing" and the like are the sign of receiving the Holy Spirit!
Just so you know, demons can cause people to speak in tongues:
"The ‘gift of tongues’ was received spontaneously by many Catholics as they were engaged in prayer to Mary." (taken from "A Woman Rides the Beast" Book, by Dave Hunt, Harvest House Publishers, Eugene, OR., 1994, Page 431)
Prophesying, healing, speaking in tongues, performing "miraculous" signs -- NONE of that proves you have received the Holy Spirit in this time period -- notice what Jesus Himself said about this:
Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and in Your Name we cast out demons, and in Your Name we did many mighty works?' "And then I will confess to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you who work iniquity!'
Matthew 24:24-25: For false christs and false prophets will be raised up, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you in advance.
Also, notice what Paul said:
1 Corinthians 13:1-10: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding brass or a clashing cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I give away all my possessions to feed the poor, and though I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind; love does not envy; love does not boast, is not puffed up; does not behave disgracefully, does not seek its own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil; does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they shall pass away; whether there are tongues, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it shall pass away. Now we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is partial shall pass away.
Paul said that LOVE is the sign of being a True Christian. He said that the gifts of the Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, prophesying, etc. were NOTHING compared with LOVE.
Paul also said that the gifts of prophesying, tongues, and knowledge were going to be done away with.
And, I believe they were done away with when the New Testament was complete.
Here is a quote about this subject, taken from my favorite Christian Website, Cutting Edge Ministries:
http://cuttingedge.org/articles/p144.htm
"multiplied thousands of churchgoers today are constantly seeking "a second blessing", "the gift of tongues", spiritual healing, miraculous protection from snakebites associated with handling them (and isn’t it interesting that the majority of those who insist upon the validity of tongues, etc., will not take up serpents and drink poison? [Mark 16:17-19] If one is still Biblically valid, then they all are! Also those who insist upon these things fail to recognize and/or admit that casting out demons and raising the dead were "sign gifts" as well.) It is not my intent to offend. My only desire is that all of us within the body of Christ get our heads on straight, wake up to the lateness of the hour, and see that Satan is trying to do a number on us! If we allow our spiritual lives to be consumed with "feeling good" and a constant desire for the miraculous, we are playing right into the hands of those who are doing the programming. Please think and pray about this!"
There you have it.
AGuest, can Christians today handle snakes and NOT be hurt if the snake bites them?
AGuest, can Christians today raise the dead?
If not, then why believe that the other signs are still happening today?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Only the Son can accuse people of blaspheming God? (End of Quote)
I am not sure. If have not asked and I have not heard. But if you mean blaspheming the Holy Spirit, the answer is yes. All WE can do is deliver the message. (Ezekiel 3:17-21) And before delivering such message, we would have to know that my Lord has judged such one, for WE… are to judge NO ONE.
I have tried to explain that I am NOT and NEVER WILL accuse anyone of the unforgivable blasphemy against the Spirit.
I have accused you of blasphemy against Christ. That is forgivable if you repent.
Only God the Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit can read your heart and mind, so I do not condemn you. Jesus Christ is the Final Judge.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Jesus Christ Himself said that people should judge what is right and what is wrong: (End of Quote)
You err. My Lord said, “STOP judging.”
You entirely misunderstand the verse, which is no longer a surprise to me. The word “judge” here is that which means DISCERN or DETERMINE… not judge as in drawing a conclusion about the righteousness… or lack thereof… of another.
Well, I explained before on another post in this Thread what I believe about judging people. You can read it or you can ignore it.
I would like you to read this quote from Cutting Edge Ministries:
http://cuttingedge.org/articles/p133.htm
Now that we have seen some ways to determine whether or not we possess the Holy Spirit, let’s consider the other fellow, the unsaved. Most of the time, when we even suggest exercising spiritual discernment about someone else, professing Christians have an adverse reaction to even the thought of "judging" them—mainly because they do not understand the Lord’s teaching in the Sermon on the Mount, where He said "Judge not that ye be not judged" (Matt.7:1, KJV). The "Amplified Bible" renders it this way: "Do not judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves" (emphasis mine). The Word of God very definitely teaches us to exercise spiritual discernment—and that, my friend, extends to and includes those who profess Christ. The Lord’s prohibition concerns unjust judgment—acting as judge and jury through criticism and condemnation.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:21, the apostle Paul had this to say about discernment:
"But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast" (Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary).
To blindly accept a profession of faith by someone is a failure to exercise discernment. It hasn’t been too many years ago since it was common practice to wait a probationary period before taking someone into the membership of a local church. The convert was expected to "walk the walk and talk the talk" before being accepted as a member. This is just a common sense practice and churches today would be much better off spiritually if they adhered to it. As we have discussed earlier, one who is genuinely born again is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and the demonstration of this fact is what we must look for in a new convert—or any other individual that comes into our lives professing to be a Christian. The doctrine of separation requires that we exercise the utmost restraint and wariness before becoming close friends with anyone. Why? Because "birds of a feather flock together" and our personal testimony is one of the most precious possessions we have. Sinful and worldly attitudes are easily "contagious" and we are supposed to stay away from them. God made it abundantly clear to the Israelites to stay away from the Canaanites for that very reason. Should we do less?
How can we perceive or detect the presence of the Holy Spirit in someone else? Is that even possible? Yes, it is possible—but unfortunately it is not "fool-proof." The primary means we must utilize is observation of the individual over time and what we look for is the "fruit of the Spirit" as given to us in Galatians 5:22-23, where we read:
"But the fruit of the (Holy) Spirit, [the work which His presence within accomplishes]—is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness; (Meekness, humility) gentleness, self-control (self-restraint, continence), Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge]" (Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary).
Perhaps you have heard some preacher make the statement that "we must not judge others, but we sure can inspect fruit"? What this means is that the presence of the Holy Spirit within a saved individual is going to produce spiritual fruit in his life. Therefore if some individual you know claims Christ, but you cannot honestly discern any spiritual fruit, you may be wrong in your assessment—but your attitude toward that person should be one of caution! It is possible that they are so immature or backslidden that the production of spiritual fruit is lacking due to their "quenching the Holy Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 5:19). But in either case close fellowship with them is not wise. Where there is no fruit, there is no root! Jesus Christ is the Vine and Christians are His branches (John 15:1-8).
We are being bombarded with spiritual deception and it is only going to get worse as we approach the end of the age. Demonic activity is obviously rampant across the world and Christians must be constantly vigilant, because "we wrestle not against flesh and blood…" (Ephesians 6:12). We need to pray daily for spiritual discernment that we might avoid the land mines of the devil. Nice people masquerading as brothers and sisters in Christ—yet convinced that they are genuine—are playing havoc with our churches. Preachers and other leaders are themselves lost and are "blind leading the blind." Only the Holy Spirit can protect us against being deceived by these people and we must rely upon Him—mightily!
AGuest said:
James 2:7: Do they not blaspheme the noble Name by which you are called?
Who did James judge? If the people were NOT doing such a thing and James made his statement, then he was judging them. However, if they WERE doing such a thing... blaspheming Christ's Name... it was a forgivable act. It is blaspheming the Holy Spirit... what my Lord does and does not do, by means of being a "life-giving" spirit empowered and AUTHORIZED by God... that is unforgivable. And only my Lord can make such a charge. WHY? Because WE... do not know what is IN a man... what his motive and intention is. Only God and CHRIST do... so that it is only THEY who know whether such one is truly blaspheming the Spirit or not. You, however, have taken it upon yourself to know such a thing. Do you think Peter knew such a thing about Ananias and Sapphira on his OWN?
I have never judged anyone of committing the unforgivable sin and I never will. Only Jesus can do that.
AGuest said:
I thought that's what we were speaking about. That is, after all, what you have accused me of in your previous post. You did not come right out and say it. Yet. But you will. Eventually. How do I know? Because like Paul... I am soon to "hand you over", just as I have been directed by my Lord. But I do not do it of my own initiative, for I have no such authority. As I told you above, I have given this matter careful consideration... and have spoken with my Lord on throughout my day. It is his direction, then, that I follow. It is HIS voice... that I must obey.
And why is it that you must be turned over? Because I have professed to you that I speak… by means of holy spirit, which spirit has been granted me by the Son of God, the Holy Spirit. Yet, you accuse me of speaking FALSELY, thus, implying that the spirit by which I speak is also false. And is not THAT blasphemy against the Spirit? And yet, I did not want to accuse you, so I took the matter to my Lord. No, that is not true. I was called by him and TOLD what it was that you had done. I tried to see past it; I asked that it be overlooked for you did not know what you were doing. His response is that you did not CARE - you were so concerned with YOUR righteousness and YOUR being right, that you REFUSED to hear the Spirit... even when it warned you... which warning you yourself HEARD... which is why you tried to cover the error of your heart with words to the effect that you were NOT judging. But as we will see below... you had indeed ALREADY judged me, no matter what your words said to the contrary... and it was my Lord that allowed you to bring it out. I, for my part, was willing to leave this matter some time ago. But YOU insisted. And now... here we are.
My Lord directed me to caution you; I did caution you. More than once. But... you were too far gone in your HEART to hear such caution... from me... or the spirit. The error, then, is yours... and you blood... is upon YOUR head.
AGuest, I truly feel sorry for you. As I said before, I have nothing but love and concern for you.
All I have done is speak the truth as revealed by my Lord Jesus Christ through His Holy Bible, and yet, your voice has accused me of the unforgivable sin for speaking the truth as revealed by Jesus Christ through the Holy Bible.
Your voice sounds nothing like the Jesus I worship.
I am going to continue to pray to the TRUE JESUS, who is God Almighty, and beg Him to open your eyes, and ask Him to lead you into THE REAL TRUTH, the wonderful truth of the Holy Scriptures, especially the Inspired New Testament -- THE GOSPEL, and to know the truth of the Holy Trinity, and I will ask Him to cause you to be truly Born Again, and Saved, if it His will, and I will ask Him to forgive your sins, because I do not believe you are sinning intentionally.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) What I said is, if someone hears a voice that contradicts the Scriptures, it is an evil spirit speaking. (End of Quote)
And I would agree with you. IF that voice contradicted SCRIPTURE. You and I do not agree on what is SCRIPTURE, let alone on what that which IS scripture says or means.
You're right we don't agree on what Scripture is. You do not even agree with the Apostle Peter on what Scripture is. Peter said that ALL of the Paul's Letters were SCRIPTURE, and that if anyone perverted Paul's Letters they would be destroyed.
AGuest said:
Now, I have used YOUR source, the BIBLE… to show you what is scripture, what my Lord SAID was scripture. I have used YOUR source, the BIBLE… to show how the gospels, particularly Luke, could NOT be scripture. What am I to do if you do not HEAR… and get the sense of it… even from your OWN source?
You have not proved at all that Luke is not Inspired. Why couldn't God have Inspired Luke to write his Gospel free from any errors? You are once again limiting God.
I am pretty sure that ALL of the early Church Fathers believed that Luke was Inspired Scripture. I am going to go with them over you.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I am going to repeat my statement again, loud and clear: Any spirit or any human that contradicts the Holy Scriptures, the Bible, is a deceiver, a liar, and an Antichrist -- an enemy of the True Jesus Christ! From what I have heard, that includes your voice. (End of Quote)
And thus, I pity you your lack of faith... and your blasphemy. May JAH's mercy be upon you, for you do NOT know what you are doing.
I also hope and pray that the Lord will have mercy on me, and since I have been Born Again, I know that He will.
I am not sorry about anything I have said to you. I do not take back what I have said to you.
I am sorry that you feel this way about me, but I must continue to speak what I know to be the TRUTH.
AGuest said:
(NOTE: Last night, before I got further down, I had included this in my response: "Please, dear UnDf’d… again, I caution you: you risk blasphemy against the Spirit. It is true that any spirit or human who contradicts THE SCRIPTURES is a deceiver… and the scribes have been doing that for millenniums. So, that what is NOW recorded is not as reliable as the SOURCE of what is recorded. And it is the voice of that One that I hear… and by means of his spirit that I speak. I bid you… please… take care! For it is not my judgment nor that of Christ’s that will result, for by your own words… you will judge yourself!" Unfortunately, such words no longer apply... as I kept reading. For some reason, I did not want to, but I could not stop. Now... I know why.)
I know my Lord Jesus well enough to know that your voice is speaking falsely about my Lord. Would the Lord Jesus blaspheme Himself? NEVER.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped: The gifts of the Holy Spirit had not been poured out, and the Fullness of The Holy Spirit had not been poured out until Jesus was Resurrected. However, some people certainly did have the Holy Spirit living in them, while Jesus was on Earth: Luke 1:15: For he shall be great before the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, while still in his mother's womb. How do you explain that? If Jesus is The Holy Spirit, then how did The Holy Spirit live in John the Baptist while Jesus was on Earth? Luke 1:66-67: And all those who heard them kept them in their hearts, saying, "What kind of child will this be?" And the hand of the Lord was with him. Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and he prophesied, saying,
How was Zacharias filled with The Holy Spirit while Jesus was on Earth? (End of Quote)
John and Zecharaiah… were filled with holy spirit, the LIFE FORCE of God… as were King Saul, David, Apollos, and others. Holy spirit, the life force of God, is NOT the same thing as THE Holy Spirit, my Lord. For how then could my Lord BAPTIZE his sheep WITH God, or WITH himself, or WITH another being, as John the Baptist said: “That one… will baptize you with fire and spirit,” which was first evidence at Pentecost 30CE? May I suggest you review your Greek capitalizations?
Galatians 3:27: For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Christians are baptized "into Christ", so why can't they be baptized "with the Holy Spirit"?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Now you are saying people who believe in a FALSE CHRIST can be saved by doing good works! Unbelievable! I am speechless. (End of Quote)I seriously doubt that you are: just look below. People… who do good works… DEMONSTRATE THEIR FAITH… BY their works! So that, whenever people of the nations (who did not have the Law) do… BY NATURE… the things OF the Law… they ARE a law… unto themselves. They are those who say they WON’T go… but do… contrasted by those who profess a faith… who say they WILL go… but don’t.
Christians do good works BECAUSE they have been SAVED ALREADY. Christians DO NOT do good works TO GET SAVED.
That is what separates ALL false religions on earth from the one true Christian Faith!
The one true Christian faith, teaches that you are saved ONLY by grace [undeserved, unearned kindness] through faith in Jesus, and THEN you will do good works BECAUSE The Holy Spirit lives in you.
Every single false religion on earth, Christian or not, teaches that humans must do SOMETHING, some sort of "good works" in order to be saved.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) So, Rahab would have been saved if she had not believed in JAH? She would have been saved only because of her good works? (End of Quote)
Rahab DIDN'T believe in JAH, not in the sense of Him being the God she worshipped. Rather, she'd HEARD of HIM... of what He'd done for the Israelites and she put FAITH in Him, in what He could DO... and thus she hid the spies in exchange not only for HER salvation, but that of her ENTIRE household. The others... DID NOTHING... except come to her house. And yet, THEY WERE SAVED.
How do you know? Does the Bible say whether or not those people believed in God? If not, you are ADDING to the Scriptures.
In fact, Hebrews Chapter 11 says that Rahab was saved BECAUSE OF HER FAITH IN GOD:
Hebrews 11:31: By faith the prositute Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
AGuest said:
Rahab was saved because of her faith... was DEMONSTRATED… by her works. She could have SAID she had faith… all day long. But unless and until she DID something to SHOW it… it was moot. She DID something: she hid the spies. Hebrews 11 explains this entire concept, as does James 2:14-25.
She had saving faith in God, therefore, she had been Born Again already, and that is why she showed LOVE by hiding out the spies.
Her ETERNAL LIFE depended, not on hiding the spies, but on being Born Again, having faith in God and having LOVE.
If Rahab had NOT had faith in God, and she hid out the spies, then she might have been saved from that destruction, but she WOULD NOT have received ETERNAL LIFE.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) If people can be saved by doing good works without having faith, then CHRIST DIED FOR NOTHING: Galatians 2:21: I do not annul the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died for nothing." (End of Quote)One cannot be saved by doing works… OF THE LAW (Covenant); one is saved, by means of doing works… of the NEW Covenant: loving God, Christ, neighbor and enemy… and actively DEMONSTRATING such love. For LOVE… is the Law’s FULFILLMENT.
Oh boy.
The Apostle Paul wrote basically the entire Romans and Galatians to SHOW EVERYONE that you cannot be saved by doing ANY "good works", not even of God's Holy and Perfect Mosaic Law, and that Mosaic Law INCLUDED the Commands to "love your neighbor as yourself" and the "love God"!
Paul said numerous, numerous times that THE ONLY WAY to be saved is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. There is no other way.
Any other way is a blasphemous lie from the Devil himself and is extremely disrespectful to Christ!
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) You AGUEST, have just said that Christ died for nothing. (End of Quote)
And you, UnDf'd, have a problem with hearing... as well as reading comprehension. But we've already gone over that. Sigh! I said that my Lord died so that those who exercise faith in him might live. And yet, as John said at 1 John 2:2: “he is a propitiatory sacrifice for ours sins, yet NOT FOR OURS ONLY… but for the WORLD’S.
ONLY if they are Born Again and have faith in Jesus Christ's Sacrifice, and Repent!
AGuest said:
Romans 10:9-14: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whosoever shall call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear apart from a preacher? First, I would tell you that you REALLY need to re-read these verses in the Greek. Truly. Because that last one is SO misleading... I don't even know how to bring anyone who believes that implication back from such misleading. It would take an entirely different thread. And I am now tired, as I am sure anyone reading this thread certainly must be.
King James Version: Romans 10:14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
I am going to go with the King James Version, which my Lord Jesus has used since 1611.
AGuest said:
But, to make it as clear as I can right now, this is speaking of and to the brothers of my Lord… the ones to whom Paul wrote: those “called”… from among the Jews AND among the nations… to be “holy ones”. What of those who are NOT his brothers? Read Matthew 25:31-46, please.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Are you saying that Paul said that Christians who have already been saved must listen to a preacher talk about Jesus, whom they have never heard about before, in order to be saved AGAIN?
What on earth are you saying?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Paul said that people are saved by (1) Believing in Jesus as Lord and in His Resurrection; (2) Confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord; (3) calling on the Name of Lord! (End of Quote)
In that context, Paul was speaking to the “holy ones”, Jews and Gentiles. For I tell you truly, UnDf'd, if a man is able to keep the Law, then he is declared righteous by MEANS of the Law, so as to receive life. He... does not NEED a saviour, for he himself has KEPT the Law. However, since NO man can do that, by Lord gave himself as a sacrifice to "cover" the sins and errors of anyone putting faith in him. What of the NEW Covenant? As my Lord said, "to the extent you did it to the LEASE of these MY BROTHERS, you did it to me. Come! Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world." Love, then, is the Law's fulfillment.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Then Paul said "How shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" Why doesn't John 3:16 say, "whoever believes in Him, or whoever just does enough good works, shall be saved"? (End of Quote)
Just enough good works? Can there be such a thing? Yet, I bid you read Matthew 10:42.
Let's actually read what it says, shall we?
Matthew 10:42: And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
But, let's get a better understanding by looking at what Mark says:
Mark 9:41: For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink IN MY NAME, BECAUSE YE BELONG TO CHRIST, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Jesus was saying, if someone who believes in Christ, and gives a cup of water in the Name of Christ to another Christian because he is a Christian, then that person will in no way lose his reward.
All Christians will be rewarded in Heaven based on what good things they have done. However, this in no way, has a bearing on their salvation.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Everything in the Bible that does not agree with what you believe, or with what your voice says, has been corrupted or altered! Now I see. Sure. (End of Quote)
With the voice of my Lord, yes.
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I do not believe that the voice speaking to you is Christ's voice. (End of Quote)
My previous response: "Whose voice, then, do you believe it to be? I bid you… take care and think… deeply… before you respond. Even better… ASK him."
My current response: Believe what you will. Matthew 15:14
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I believe it is a FALSE christ's voice. I believe it is a DEMON's voice. (End of Quote)
And, well, there: you have said it. It was inevitable, though, wasn’t it? You were walking SO close to that line… how could you not cross it. So that now I am compelled by my Lord to say to YOU, by means of the spirit of my Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH… of Armies… which spirit is in me by means of my Lord, His Son and Christ, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… that it is you… who blaspheme… and it is against the Holy Spirit that you do so. So now, the judgment with which you judged... is upon you. May God be merciful with you. May He, in His loving kindness and infinite wisdom, pardon your error. For again, you do NOT know what you are doing and have done. Yet, may not my will take place… but His.
Again, may the peace that I have wished you throughout return upon me. I leave you to my Lord.
A slave of Christ, my means of an anointing with holy spirit,
SJ
Well, that scares me about as much as the Watchtower Society or the Catholic Church condemning me would.
I have been Born Again by the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit lives in me. I am going to be in Heaven with my Lord for eternity worshiping Him. I do not doubt my salvation. Jesus Christ died for me. He shed His Holy and Precious Blood for me. He has washed me clean in His Blood.
I pray and hope that you may be there as well.
