by metatron 34 Replies latest jw friends
I hope that the fanatical Muslims will eventually be caught and dealt with so that they can not spread their hate the other peace-loving majority of Muslims.
That's called an oxy-moron. How can anyone that practices a religion which clearly states that anyone not Islam is an infidel and deserves the death-penalty, be a peace-loving Muslem? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you think this basic fundamental teaching has to be changed first?
my 2 cents.
Andy
Am I stupid or gifted?
To me, as I have stated elsewhere, it is bleeding obvious.
Islam is a monolithic religion that has not under gone reform of any nature comparable to Chritianity's reforms in the 15th C. It is based in devleoping (or, in some cases to be blunt, undeveloped) countries with low levels of education.
Compare Christianity in the 15th C to Islam now, see the parrallels. Islam is due for reform. It has evolved a defence mechanism against reform (verbal transmission of scripture) that might strengthen it slightly more against such movements when compared with Christianity which did it level best to restrict access to scripture, but it has such a high level of pressure of sociological changes building up behind it, reform will come.
500 years before the reform of the Christian church, if you check your history books, Isalm was the flower of reason, having scientific knowledge and levels of tolerance that made Christians of the period look backwards. They lived alongside people of other religions, like Jews, which Christians of the period rarely did without trouble. Their interpretations of the Quran were benign.
I think the only way to avoid apocaplyctic nonsense like;
Unless there is a power external to man that can rescue us we are indeed doomed
(People have been saying this for over a thousand years in the Christian tradition alone, let's not hold our breath, m'kay?) is to take a historical view.
If we don't learn from history, we're unlikely to be able to analyise current affairs with sufficient objectivity.
Islam was once generally far more civilised than Christianity of the same period.
Christianity reformed and lost many of the harmful features that had arrisen as a result of mutation (for want of a better word) from the orginal message. There are still some Christian groups that harbour harmful mutations to the original message, but most forms of Christian belief are benign.
Isalm has not reformed, and just as Christianity picked up many harmful mutations in the 1500 years between Christ and the reform, so has Islam.
Now Christianity is far more 'civilised' in the majority of its expressions than the most mutated forms of Islam.
It's very simple, it's not the end of the world, and in 200 years people will be reading their history and wondering why people didn't look at history to interpret the religious problems of the early 21st C
abbadon,
to Chritianity's reforms in the 15th C.
are you talking about luther?
Avengers:
When I made my previous statement about the majority of Muslims being peace-loving....I was thinking about the Muslim family that attends my daughter's school. I don't know them personally, but from all appearances they seem like peace-loving people to me. But, your statement struck a cord in me...did I only see what I want to see?....
taken from www.answering-islam.org.uk/Terrorism/peace-loving.html
Originally I had thought that the Quran was like the Bible in many ways, contradictions throughout, promoting peace in one scripture and killing babies in the next. I have heard of quotes from the Quran promoting peace among Muslims, and I have heard quotes promoting the extermination of all non-Muslims.
What must be understood before comparing texts from the Quran is that there are inconsistences between earlier statements and later statements. And, when this does happen, the later texts are to be followed. To "aborgate" the earlier texts is extremely important to remember when examining quotes and adherring to them for a Muslim.
Examples of earlier texts from the Quran:
"Let there be no compulsion in religion." 2:256
"Therefore expound openly what thou art commanded, and turn away from those who join false gods with Allah." 15:94
These texts in no way promote violence to the unbeliever. Next, we will see a later text which should supersede the previous texts because of "aborgation."
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem(of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practice regular Charity, then open the way for them; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." 9:5
This text which promotes the killing of non-Muslims aborgates the earlier texts of non-violence. This to me is key to understanding why some Muslims will be seen promoting peace and some are extreme in their views of ridding the world of infidels. After doing some research, I have found that the majority of texts promoting peace in the Quran are aborgated by verse 9:5. Hence, all unbelievers are now obligated by Islam to convert or be killed. The Quran orders Muslims to fight in order to establish Allah's kingdom on earth by any means. Verse 9:5 is commonly called "the verse of the sword."
The Hadeeth is the second source of Islamic doctrine...and it completely agrees with the Quran concerning violence and hatred toward all non-Muslims. Example: "Muhammad said: I swear to Him who has my soul in his hands, I was sent to you with nothing but slaughter."-Ibn Haban in his Sahih, vol 14, p 529. Another: "I heard the prophet of Allah saying, I will cast Jews and Christains out of the pennisula and I won't leave any one in it but Muslims." - spoken by Omar Ibn al-Khatah from Sunan Abu Dawud, vol 2, no. 28 from the Muhaddith program.
Most moderate Muslims declare that they do indeed pursue peace, do not wish to force their faith on others and respect the existence of non-Muslim religions. To do this, however, and be a moderate, conservative Muslim requires them to REJECT the commands from the Quran and other writings that perpetuate violence and hatred. The question is how many Muslims out there in the world are moderate....and how many adhere to the teachings of Islam to the letter. Are the moderates wolves in sheeps clothing? Too many questions, not enough answers. I will be doing more research on this, but I am afraid that I will not find the peaceful answer I look for.
another source of information: www.answers.org/cultsandreligions/islampeace.html
Mrs. Shakita
Shakita: Thank you for the thorough elaboration. I will be looking forward to more of your findings.
It saddens me to say that my belief in "peaceful muslems" has really taken some dents in these past few months.
Yesterday I was confronted with an Iranian lady whom claims to be of the Muslem faith, but is married to a non-Islam. She wears no Burka or headgear. She treats the people in her surroundings with "respect" and is very polite. (but how is she really?)
Another "Muslem lady" I know was married to a "real Muslem". She refused to wear headgear or a burka.
They ended up divorced. He went to Iran and got a divorce instantly. If for any reason she is sent back to Iran she will be executed for being adulterate. He told me that she is declared an outlaw and execution is Allah's will. Chances are as he said that she won't even make it off the airport.
This raises a question for me. Do "Muslem Apostates" exist? This "adulterate" lady is now living with another Muslem. Is he apostate?
In the past the Muslems didn't do much for me, but
as I continue to learn about them, they scare me more and more.
Maybe it's best if Jesus and Mohammad or Allah and Jehovah got together and fought it out in the ring. Maybe Abraham can be referee. This, instead of killing thousand and thousands.
Thanks. Andy
all religions are created to keep their followers (subjects) in line, IMO. Islam is no worse than any other religion. There are dozens of texts in the Bible that can be interpreted to mean that you have to kill non-believers. All of your arguments are coming from a completely one-sided and ignorant perspective. I mean how can you back up a statement like "They seemed nice but now I know that they must be plotting to kill me" (very loosely quoted, but you get my point). Just the other day I heard of this crazy religion where the followers killed targeted clinics and doctors, oh wait that is christianity and it happens in the great bastion of human rights and freedom, the USA.
Realist; yup, not that the Reform was all sunshine and roses, but it was a start of things.
avengers;
Maybe it's best if Jesus and Mohammad or Allah and Jehovah got together and fought it out in the ring. Maybe Abraham can be referee. This, instead of killing thousand and thousands.
Lovely idea...
Announcer: "Tonight, live from Las Vegas, the Battle for the Universe, the Mother of all Conflicts, we have tag-team dieties like you have never seen before!! In the Blue corner... Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee SUS!"
Maybe it's best if Jesus and Mohammad or Allah and Jehovah got together and fought it out in the ring. Maybe Abraham can be referee. This, instead of killing thousand and thousands.
LOL great idea...like in the MTV death matches!
Hamas: So America and Israel and whoever have killed and oppressed the poor Arabs.
Compared to what? Their own oppressions? Their own miserable governments? Would they be free and prosperous
if these Western nations left them alone? You already know the answer.
There was an EXCELLENT critique of the Muslim world in a Libertarian newspaper last week. It said the Muslim world
NEVER EXPERIENCED the Enlightenment that Europe did. As such, they never learned the PRIMACY OF REASON
above all else. They are culturally irrational - as a quick review of Arab media will reveal ( what's the latest conspiracy
theory today, Abdul?). The ratio of scientists to general population - compared to Israel -is wildly different. Why the
heck is Saudi Arabia STILL so dependent on foreign technical workers?
Proplog: your rants on Russia are silly. Their military is STILL falling apart - that's partly why your article MENTIONED
BOMBERS ( GOD, what is this , the fifties?) Their missiles are decaying and their navy is rusting away. Yes, they are
a threat - of a MAJOR NUCLEAR ACCIDENT. Western nations are worried about their crap blowing up or being fired
accidentally. Forget them as a world power, they're finished.
metatron
metatron,
about your view of the near future...i am afraid you greatly overestimate the technological advances. humans will get very powerful over the centuries but not within our lifetime. for me it would be fantastic already if i could witness the installation of the first fusion reactor before i go back to dust
about the arabs...do you think they are genetically inferior to us?
