Discipline or abuse - Which?

by Lady Lee 17 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Lady Lee

  I am having a discussion on another board about the topic of disciplining children. Some people seem to think that as long as the child did something to "deserve" it then the parent has the right to hit anyway they want.

  Grrrr

  Many of us grew up in a society that accepted the practice of corporal punishment. I have heard many people say that they were spanked as children and that it didn’t hurt them. And it seems that in some cases that might be true. And many of us have heard about those situations where the treatment of a child can clearly by seen as abusive. But where is that middle line. When does a spanking cross the line from being an acceptable form of discipline to being abuse.
  
  For some no hitting is acceptable and sadly for others there are no limits. In the book Recognizing Child Abuse: A Guide for the Concerned D. J. Besharov presents a series of questions in Is the Punishment Reasonable?
  
  Punishment whose reasonably foreseeable consequence was or could have been the child’s serious physical injury is "unreasonable" and should be reported. In less severe cases, the following factors are used to decide whether corporal punishment was "reasonable":

  • Was the purpose of the punishment to preserve discipline or to train or educate the child? Or was the punishment primarily for the parent’s gratification or the result of the parent’s uncontrolled rage?
  • Did the child have the capacity to understand or appreciate the corrective purpose of the discipline? (Very young children and mentally disabled children cannot.)
  • Was the punishment appropriate to the child’s misbehavior? (However, no matter how serious a child’s misbehavior, extremely hurtful or injurious punishment is never justified.)
  • Was a less severe but equally effective punishment available?
  • Was the punishment unnecessarily degrading, brutal, or beastly in character or protracted beyond the child’s power to endure?

  If physical force was used, was it recklessly applied? (Force directed toward a safe part of the body, such as the buttocks, ordinarily is much more reasonable than is force directed toward vulnerable organs, such as the head or genitals.) What I like about the above is that it includes physical abuse that is inclusive of things that are beyond hitting the child. It would include things like forcing a child to stand or kneel motionless for hours at a time. Shoving food down a child’s throat or depriving them of food, burning, pinching grabbing, pushing or throwing them, locking them in a room or closet, shaking a child, twisting an arm or pulling their hair could also be included in this kind of definition.
  
  There is so much controversy about this whole issue. But what I am more interested here is what defines physical abuse to a child. In looking at the last paragraph I realized after typing it that as a child I experienced every one of them. And I was often told that it was for my own good or that it would hurt them more than it hurt me. I was constantly reminded that I deserved it. And I believed it all.
  
  This kind of abuse teaches a child that they are worthless. It teaches them to be afraid of the very people they are dependent on to survive. It teaches them to not trust people. It teaches them to be overly compliant and passive or to fight back and become aggressive. It is destructive to the child’s spirit.
  
  Abuse teaches children to be the victims or aggressors of the future!
  
  What say you?
• 

  avishai

  Having been through most of the above, I agree. I also work w/ kids who have been horribly abused, the horror stories I hear still make me sick. & yes, behaviorally they are all messed up, most of them violent, some as young as 7 where I work. I fear any of them having kids of their own someday.
• 

  Wolfgirl

  In my case:

  Was the purpose of the punishment to preserve discipline or to train or educate the child? Or was the punishment primarily for the parent’s gratification or the result of the parent’s uncontrolled rage?

  If it was my mother "disciplining" us, it was definitely uncontrolled rage. My father had a better handle on his temper. She would lose it and just keep on hitting.

  Was the punishment appropriate to the child’s misbehavior? (However, no matter how serious a child’s misbehavior, extremely hurtful or injurious punishment is never justified.)

  Not usually.

  Was a less severe but equally effective punishment available?

  Always. Less severe punishments were handed out to my sister, not me.

  Was the punishment unnecessarily degrading, brutal, or beastly in character or protracted beyond the child’s power to endure?

  What...you mean like having to stand there half naked with your trousers around your ankles and your hands on the kitchen side (counter) whilst you were getting repeatedly hit?

  If physical force was used, was it recklessly applied?

  Fairly often.

  I don't think I "deserved" it. I was a fairly good child. Sure, my sister and I bickered sometimes, but that's what kids do. Especially when there's a 5 year age gap between them.

  Abuse teaches children to be the victims or aggressors of the future!

  Very true. I have to work very hard to control my temper. (We have no children.) A couple of times, I've had to go outside and hit/break things when I'm really angry because the dogs have done something really bad. It's really hard to control. I lose my temper very rarely, because I have such tight control on it. But when I do lose it, it's ugly. That's why I go outside. I don't want my dogs to be afraid of me. I've never abused them, but only because I work so hard at controlling my anger.
• 

  rocketman

  I have one child who, when young, I'd on rare occasions hit slightly, maybe on the hand or buttocks. Interestingly, I felt the most compulsion to hit while at the Kingdom Hall. One time, I took her to the back and hit her on the behind because she was acting up. When I look back on that, it bothers me because, what the heck, kids have an awful time trying to sit at those meetings for two hours.

  I personally feel that in many cases, using force on the child is perhaps a lazy way of disciplining. It's easier than reasoning, easier than setting up a different punishment/reward system. It's expediency is what I think makes it so common, and I think it should only be used as a last resort and very judiciously if at all.
• 

  Aztec

  Having some experience at this, my opinion is that most anything beyond spanking a child on the buttocks is over the edge. Some of it is worse than others obviously. Swatting a child on the hand when he is about to touch a hot surface is obviously not over the edge. There are a lot of gray areas in this issue. I very rarely use corporal punishment on my son. I used to say I never would but he got older and his behavior changed. It still is a last ditch punishment for me. But then, I saw my father beat my sister's head into a wall as a child so I probably am a bit biased.

  ~Aztec
• 

  TorturedSoul

  Hello.....

  I have been working with abused children for over 25 years and I have a few ideas.Some may not be agreed with, but I guess this subject can be debated forever.

  By the age of four a child knows the difference between right and wrong. Children will have already begun to test their limits by this age. The parent must provide boundaries.

  Let your child know from the onset what behavior is acceptable and what is not. Let your child know what attitudes are acceptable and what are not. Then firmly enforce these boundaries. Above all, do not dismiss direct defiance for which a child must be punished. Punishment is a part of discipline as is reward. Many parents do not want to hurt their children by being "strict," but children at this age need strong leadership. If you as a parent do not provide it, a child will seek role-models elsewhere.

  When it becomes necessary to punish a child, do not make threats you do not intend to or cannot enforce. Your child will remember and will begin to ignore you if you do not enforce the rules. Kids have many privileges which they view as rights. Take privileges away from your child, and he or she will take you seriously. Do not make your child go to bed without dinner, but feel free to eliminate dessert.

  Spanking is one of the biggest debates with parents today. I think a good guideline is that spanking should be used as a last resort punishment when a child is consistently defying the parent. Children older than eight should probably not be spanked (it hurts your hand) :-)

  If you want to effectively discipline your children, they must trust and respect you. By following through with your statements you will earn their respect, but you need to show your children that you love them by spending time with them. Quality time is great, but quantity is important, too. Children are not fooled by material gifts which, outside of special occasions, are nothing more than bribes or apologies.

  Some children take longer to discipline than others. You must help your children mold their wills. Do not break their spirits. Teach your children to think about their actions. Model appropriate behavior for them. If you make a mistake, then apologize. Show them that good behavior has benefits. Reward their good behavior or achievements from time to time. Everyone likes to be recognized. Do not reward every good thing they do, or they will expect to be rewarded for behaving properly.

  Just a few thoughts

  TS

  .
• 

  Mary

  I think it is acceptable to spank a child as a form of discipline, but ONLY as a last resort, or if the situation at hand needs immediate results. I don't think you should spank a child anywhere but on the bum and no more than a couple of spanks should do the trick. They shouldn't be spanked so hard that they're screaming in pain either. Years ago at a summer assembly, a sister had her little boy in the bathroom (he couldn't have been any more than 4 years old) and she pulled down his pants and went nuts on him. The kid was screaming in pain yet no one else said a word. I was only about 14 at the time, so needless to say I didn't say anything either, but I never forgot that.

  What's really bad is that yelling and screaming usually accompanies a spanking. Speaking first hand, I know that the emotional abuse that the yelling entails, did far more damage to me as a child than what physical chastisement ever did. Although I'm sure my father didn't do it deliberately, his yelling at me for whenever I erred really sunk my self esteem and I grew up feeling totally worthless and to a great degree I still do.

  If parents do spank their children, they should NOT yell and scream at them as well. You want to correct the child, not degrade them.
• 

  happy man

  Here in Sweden it is forbidden in law to spank children, and as wittneses we are very hard learnd to net do this, I have several children so I have some expirience.

  In the 50 when we grow upp in truht it was not so easy to be child, but I get never spanking,

  but the pressure to as parents do and obey was much higher then today, so when My chldren grow upp i never try to force them to things as myself find was hard when I grow upp, like service.

  But I must say I have trubel beaucause some of my children have turn to this modern style of living, wher you do as you want and never obey anyone, so they ahve gone to fare the other way, even widh mariujana and the life style they hade who use this.

  So sometime I think I ahve been to soft, and try to stopp them, but how do you stopp children today, it not easy, they are learnd from school to qesting evrything, so it is realy diffrent times, and hard to bee parents.
• 

  Nosferatu

  Hi Lady Lee, Fellow Winnipegger!

  "This kind of abuse teaches a child that they are worthless. It teaches them to be afraid of the very people they are dependent on to survive. It teaches them to not trust people. It teaches them to be overly compliant and passive or to fight back and become aggressive. It is destructive to the child’s spirit."

  I somewhat agree with this statement, but as a JW, you have the fear of dying at armageddon cooked into your brain, and you must please Jehovah by honoring your mother & father. When this is combined with abuse, the child has incredible self-esteem problems, and posesses no self-confidence. I know because I've been there.

  I think the thin line between abuse and discipline can be defined by how it is administered. If the parent is bold while administering the punishment, it's discipline. If the parent is in rage while administering the punishment, it's abuse.

  The sad thing is being a victim of "discipline" when the child has done absolutely nothing. The child becomes a "punching bag" for the parent to take his/her anger out on. Hell, I've tried to run from it, but when my mother was in a flaming rage, there was no escape.

  After a while, I started developing this attitude. Whenever I got mad, I would use the cat as a punching bag. When I got a bit older, I started to realize that I was behaving exactly like my mother, and I made the effort to change my way of directing anger. I'm pleased with the way I've turned out in the end :)
• 

  Francois

  Young children especially don't have an appreciation for what their parents may say - even when there is no discipline going on.

  On the way to school one morning in the early 1950s, my mother leaned over in the front seat of the car and whispered something to my father. My father, ever alert to opportunities to issue insults said, "Look at Frank's big ol' ears sticking out." I heard it even though he said it sotto voce. Why did he say that about me?

  To my unsophisticated and literal mind, I believed that I did indeed have large, protruding ears. And I was embarrassed by them. On that day I walked into school with no books and so could cover my ears with my hands. I went straight to the boys restroom. When I was certain I was alone I removed my hands from my new found deformity. Well, perhaps they did stick out some, or perhaps I was just painfully self-conscious.

  The next day I remembered to wear my backpack so I could put my books in it and leave my hands free. I'd need them, you see, to cover my unfortunate newly discovered birth defect. The other kids of course made fun of me walking along with my hands over my ears. "Just keeping 'em warm," I smiled at them bravely attempting to put them off the scent. And pretty much I was left alone.

  I was terrified that my mother would discover that I had heard my father insult me about my huge ears and he would be angry. He had clearly told us that we were never to mention anyone's handicap to them or say anything abou it loudly enough for them to hear. I wasn't certain how I'd get in trouble for hearing what he said, I was just certain that I would. So I was very inventive, coming up with various ways of hiding my terrible affliction. But there were times when I couldn't, and these proved some of the most embarrassing moments of my entire life.

  First grade is stressful enough without having to carry the heavy burden of a public deformity around all the time and trying to hide it to boot. I knew then after just a couple of days that I would never have a girlfriend. What girl would want to be with a boy who had huge ears and had to hide them all the time? I couldn't think of a one. I prayed for small, more natural ears. Every morning they were the same.

  I took this huge, overwhelming question to my grandfather at the first opportunity. He gave me a kina funny sidelong look, "No, Cap'n, I don't see that you have ears bigger than anyone else." And I felt relieved for the first time in three weeks. However, later that night when I was thanking my lucky stars for the smaller ears, suddenly the thought occured to me, "What if Papa was just being nice? I knew he was like that: kind and gentle and loving. Now my misery was complete. I had huge ears and even my grandfather wouldn't talk to me about it. I began to consider suicide. There were guns of all sorts around my grandfather's farm. I decided to just carry my burden alone and unhelped in utter silence, sort of like the priest I'd seen in the movie on tv earlier that week who was wearing a hair shirt to prove himself to god. I'd make some sense of my affliction by telling myself that I was wearing big ears and a test from God. And even that didn't work for long.

  This went on for over two years until finally my mother asked me why I was always covering my ears with my hands.

  "'Cause I'm hiding them."

  "Why are you hiding them?"

  "Because they're way too big."

  "What makes you think your ears are way too big," she wanted to know.

  "I heard what daddy said to you on the way to school that time?"

  "What time?"

  "You know, the week before my sister had those dangerous measles and you had to stay with her in the hospital and I had to stay with Papa so I wouldn't catch 'em. Remember" And by now the hot tears of the shame of discovery were coursing down my cheeks; and added to them were the other tears of knowing I wasn't normal, would never have a girlfriend. I would probably just live on the farm with my grandparents; sort of hide myself out in the woods where they lived.

  My mother gave me the oddest look. Now her eyes were brimming full about to spill over. "That was almost three years ago. Have you been hiding your ears for three years?" I could no longer let her look at me. I put my arms around her neck and hid my shame and my disformity in the crook of her neck. A muffled "yes" was all I could manage.

  And now I could tell she was crying; her shoulders shaking, her voice unsteady. And then, when she felt better, she began to explain what my father had said and why. It sounded pretty thin to me at the time, and I made her promise never to tell my father about it, never. I had learned by then that I never wanted to be found guilty of telling my father something he didn't want to hear, and I figured he didn't want to hear this because it made him at fault for sorry ideas about myself. If he heard that story, he'd find a way to make it my fault, I knew that much, and I wasn't going to go there again ever.

  I won't beat this story to death any more since I think my point's made. I lived through almost four years of embarrassing agony and fleeing self esteem because of what I'd overheard and misunderstood. And in the dysfunctionality of my family of origin, I dared not ask for an explanation like, "What do you mean I have big ears?" I'd never get away with that in a hundred years.

  So think. Think before you say anything around your small children, especially if they are introverted and shy. They're just looking for reasons to justify their feelings of unworthiness and invalidity. And when they imagine they've found one, it becomes easier to justify feeling miserable about themselves all day one more time.

  Think

  francois