Am I an Agnostic?

by Bendrr 14 Replies latest jw friends

  • Bendrr
    Bendrr

    I've been doing some reading on Agnostics lately and I've also been doing some thinking of my own.

    See, the way I see it is I do believe that there is *A* god or maybe even more than one. I also don't disbelieve Satan or demons but I do think they're way overrated.

    I just think that we don't have sufficient information. The bible that we commonly use now was translated using documents from very primitive and superstitious times during a just slightly less primitive and superstitious age by a group of MEN. I remember watching a show on the History Channel that said some of the books in the bible only made it in by one vote. So what books got voted out? Are any of the translations we have now accurate? And if not, what are the mistranslations and omissions? Just look at the NWT for example. What if the Bible were not translated until the twentieth century? Or the nineteenth?

    And then comes the sticky point of Jesus' ransom sacrifice. God is all-powerful, created the Earth and the rest of the universe, and created Man. So Adam and Eve screw up, with a little coaching from Satan, and the result is an expulsion from Paradise and imperfection passed on to the rest of humanity. The *only* way to fix that was for God's son to die as a man, a sacrifice to God, repaying God for the collective sins of humanity. But that bill wasn't paid in full. In order for humanity to benefit from that sacrifice everybody has to be a Christian and follow Jesus. And as religion got into it, as religion saw the opportunity to exert control and make a profit, it turns out that that sacrifice doesn't really entirely cover human imperfection after all.

    Plus, the whole story just doesn't sit right with me sometimes. Again, God is all powerful right? He's the creator after all. He had two options back when it all started. Either just wipe out Adam and Eve, and go ahead and get rid of Satan too right there from the get-go which given the power and situation you or I probably would have done just that. Or simply say right then "I'm the one who made all this and you, you did wrong but I forgive you and will let you live and give you another chance because I love you". But instead he waited. What, four thousand years? And then has his "son", the first being he created, come down to Earth to be born as a human and live the life of a human. Has this "son" do that and then die. Did he really die? According to the bible, Jesus was killed and dead for three days but during those 3 days of death he was active in spirit form preaching a message of condemnation to other spirit beings in "Tartarus". (now if I'm wrong about that someone correct me, because it's been a while since I've read that) And he didn't stay dead, it was only 3 days later he was resurrected and the debt to God was paid. Basically God paid a debt to himself using his son as currency and it only took 3 days to make up for four thousand years of past debts and also to cover an indefinite accumulation of future debts. Now I'm no lawyer but if this were tried in a human court, Satan would have one hell of a case. (no pun intended)

    Now two thousand years after that God's going to "clean up". It ain't just the dubs that believe some big mass destruction is on the way. Billions of men, women, and children are going to die. Either they just cease to exist or the bad ones burn in hell forever. A large percentage of those billions are good people, your and my neighbors and friends and coworkers. How many are little kids? How many do you think will be Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist in third world countries who've never even heard of Christianity? How many lived during periods of history when there weren't any Christians or before Jesus died? Does that make them bad and worthy of destruction?

    Well I'll tell you. If that's the god of Christianity and his son Jesus is going along with the whole scenario, then my conscience won't let me worship either of them. I'll take my chances.

    And that's why I'm asking that question. Am I agnostic? Am I atheist? Am I doomed to Hell or eternal destruction? Or am I just like the rest of humankind and acting on the limited information we have? I don't really know. I feel like I fall in the Agnostic category for lack of a better term. I think that at this time we don't have enough information for me to make a decision. Until we do, I admit that we have a good source of moral guidelines in the current Bible and should try to follow them. I also believe that we're a result of intelligent creation and that the creator gave us our intellect for a reason. When it comes down to it, my personal feelings are that he created us because he was lonely. But he's going to let us develop on our own and it may take more hundreds even thousands of years before he's ready but one day we'll reach the point that he will say "ok, good job, here I am.".

    So what do you think?

    Mike.

  • DJ
    DJ

    Bendrr (((((((((((hugs))))))))))))

    I think that you are just normal. You have questions that can't be answered by me, that's for sure. I've had the same thoughts at times....it passes for me and I feel better when it's gone. Make it through this one and it will get easier. I'll say a prayer for you, if you'd like?. We all need help with this at times. When I get like you, my husband prays for me and it helps everytime. love,dj

  • Satanus
    Satanus
    I don't really know.

    Yup, that's agnostic. I also think that your conclusions are reached in a normal, balanced, even handed way, considering the info and experience that you have had.

    SS 2 cents worth

  • SpunkyChick
    SpunkyChick
    . He had two options back when it all started. Either just wipe out Adam and Eve, and go ahead and get rid of Satan too right there from the get-go which given the power and situation you or I probably would have done just that. Or simply say right then "I'm the one who made all this and you, you did wrong but I forgive you and will let you live and give you another chance because I love you". But instead he waited.

    Bendrr - I agree with your thoughts. Thank you for sharing. I have often wondered why God played that game with humanity via Adam and Eve. The way Christianity writes it, makes it look like one big game God's playing. With all the evil crap on the earth it amazes me, if there is a God like in the bible, why he isn't ending this world??

  • Mecurious?
    Mecurious?
    Am I agnostic?

    Yep!

    B'

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    The way the bible, wt and christians describe god's handling of adam and eve screw up, is showing god to have an ego problem. By destroying everything, he would have admited defeat. Better thousands of yrs of suffering, if it made god look better than satan and the human civilization. There is no love in that.

    SS

  • Princess
    Princess
    He had two options back when it all started. Either just wipe out Adam and Eve, and go ahead and get rid of Satan too right there from the get-go which given the power and situation you or I probably would have done just that. Or simply say right then "I'm the one who made all this and you, you did wrong but I forgive you and will let you live and give you another chance because I love you".

    I read my son a bible story once. It was the story of the garden of eden. He is six and just tore it apart. He raised so many good questions regarding that story, I was just shocked. After I put my son to bed, I was discussing the situation with my husband. We were talking about the WTS explanation for why god didn't wipe out Adam, Eve and Satan and just start over. They say there were all the angels to consider. They were watching too and would question God's right to rule as Satan did. Do you really think so? God just killed the three creatures who questioned God's right to rule, do you really think the others are going to get in line? Just stupid.

    I believe in God. The rest I just don't know. I don't really believe the Bible anymore. I don't think it matters much though. As long as I raise my kids right and behave myself, who cares?

    Thanks for the post Bendrr, I feel the same way about things.

  • Mulan
    Mulan
    And then comes the sticky point of Jesus' ransom sacrifice. God is all-powerful, created the Earth and the rest of the universe, and created Man. So Adam and Eve screw up, with a little coaching from Satan, and the result is an expulsion from Paradise and imperfection passed on to the rest of humanity. The *only* way to fix that was for God's son to die as a man, a sacrifice to God, repaying God for the collective sins of humanity. But that bill wasn't paid in full. In order for humanity to benefit from that sacrifice everybody has to be a Christian and follow Jesus. And as religion got into it, as religion saw the opportunity to exert control and make a profit, it turns out that that sacrifice doesn't really entirely cover human imperfection after all.

    I must admit, this always bothered me. It never made sense............NEVER.

    Great thread.

    I think I am an agnostic. Don't believe the Bible anymore, much to hubby's dismay (and my mother's) but that's my right, isn't it?

  • heathen
    heathen

    Websters defines agnostic as someone who believes that God can niether be proven nor disproven and only accepts material phenomena only as evidence . Sounds to me like you are more a heathen . The more I look at other explanations as to the existence of the universe and man the more difficult it is to rule out the possibility of God .I feel the same way about religion and think that people just use it as a means to exploit each other and God. As far as the Adam and eve thing I think it is reasonable to assume that it was an experiment that failed but was altered to suit a purpose .I think it was about soveriegnty and who had the authority to rule the planet and mankind .

  • Gadget
    Gadget

    "some books only made it in by one vote"

    What vote was this? Who voted on it and when? Any ideas what books only just got in, and which one missed out? If the prophetic books only just made it then all the stuff fortold for our day could be there by mistake...

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