Why we can't afford tax cuts

by SixofNine 80 Replies latest social current

  • Francois
    Francois

    6/9 - Most leftys at least attempt to hold down ad hominem after its been established that we're on to you but you're setting records, and becoming really boring in the process. You've used up all the time I had set aside to waste with non-entities. I could eat your breakfast, lunch, and dinner at will and there's not a damn thing you could do about it -- and we both know it, don't we sweetie?

    Now, since you're just dying to have the last word, you go on ahead with more of your brainless gibberish and I'll let you have the last, boring word.

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    ThiChi,

    I would like to ask you a question, it may seem silly or simplistic but I hope you will answer anyway. :)

    Do you think the U.S. would be better off if only one political party were in control rather than two. Please explain the "why" of your answer.

    Thanks,

    IW

  • Francois
    Francois

    Riz - Oh, I know that. At this point it's pointless who's what. This isn't an intellectual clash cause there's no intellect there for me to clash with. I feel sure I'd have seen evidence by now. I'm just engaged in a few insults before I walk out on this stupid exchange...like now.

    ft

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    then why do him such a disservice by your comments?

    Certainly none of my comments have done him a disservice, nor is his philosophy at odds with the gentleman who wrote the article I posted. You and Francoise are certainly cut from the same cloth, unreasoning, unlearning beast (dammit, now you've made me go NT on your ass), minds made up so long ago you may as well be put to pasture. You see nothing, hear nothing, w/o it coming thru a presumptive ego filter that should have long ago been changed.

    And Francoise, do you really think this kettle cares what color you call it? Although it is humorous to hear this born again capitalist called a "lefty".

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Francois wrote:

    Riz - Oh, I know that. At this point it's pointless who's what. This isn't an intellectual clash cause there's no intellect there for me to clash with. I feel sure I'd have seen evidence by now. I'm just engaged in a few insults before I walk out on this stupid exchange...like now.

    Yep, this is a keeper!

    Thanks Francois!

    IW

  • jelly
    jelly

    Actually a flat tax is a very bad idea. The way the current tax system is supposed to work is it is used to encourage behavior that benefits society. For example if a factory owner buys new equipment, he should get a tax right-off. Reason being that his factory will now be more productive and thus his product cheaper providing more goods for everyone in society. In addition, in America, education expenses are tax deductible; the theory being that educated people build a stronger society. So our current system, while flawed and in need of reform, does attempt to encourage behavior that is beneficial toward society. Any government that attempts to control an economy will fail but what the current tax system does is it gives the government the ability to nudge economies in certain directions, thus allow some control.

    Terry

  • Realist
    Realist

    thichi,

    that was a horrible article you pasted there!

    "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer." But there is no statistical evidence of this.

    OF COURSE THERE IS STATISTICAL EVIDENCE OF THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for the last 30 years the income of the lower 80% of the people decreased while the income of the top 20% increased!

    the world has only limited resources...and if the rich accumulate 90% of these resources than the remaining 90% of the population have just enough to survive.

    to use life expectancy and child death rates as measure of wealth is greatly misleading. as long as people have supply of food and antibiotics life expectancy increases automatically ..that has nothing to do with wealth in the true meaning of sense.

    by the way ... do you count yourself to the top income class in the US?

    francois,

    did i understand this right ...you are in the top income class??? in that case i understand your viewpoint and why you oppose a fairer wealth distribution.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    ""ThiChi,

    I would like to ask you a question, it may seem silly or simplistic but I hope you will answer anyway. :)

    Do you think the U.S. would be better off if only one political party were in control rather than two. Please explain the "why" of your answer.

    Thanks,

    IW"""

    No. I don’t believe one party has all the answers. I am all over the board on a lot of issues. I am against the Drug war, Drugs should be legal. Like prohibition, all we have done is create an underground and our rights have been eroded.....

    The arena of ideas deserves all viewpoints. Nation wise, I beleave that what has made the County great has been its long held values, which I would like to keep.

    Notwithstanding the above, the founding Fathers did not envision a two party system....

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Realist:

    This depends on what you consider poor and rich.....

    "And if the few rich babies in a country live and the mass of poor babies in a country die, that country will not have a "normal" infant mortality rate but a very bad one. Infant mortality and life expectancy are reasonable indicators of general well-being in a society. "

    The same trend is seen in life expectancy. In the early 1950's people in rich countries had a life expectancy of 66.5 years. Now they live 74.2 years. In the poorest countries average lifespans have increased from 35.5 years to 49.7 years. The difference in life expectancy between the world's rich and poor has decreased by 6 1/2 years. The rich are getting richer. The poor are getting richer. And we're all getting older.

    So, if wealth is not theft, if the thing that makes you rich doesn't make me poor, why don't collectivists concentrate on the question, "How do we make everyone wealthy?" Or better, "How have we been managing to do this so brilliantly since 1820?" ""

    Realist,

    This is a profound concept, I hope you grasp it! Powerful!

    ""by the way ... do you count yourself to the top income class in the US""

    I make 70,000 a year, plus benefits...your point?

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Let me present two facts about the United States that are not in dispute:

    ""1. "Fewer than 3 percent of those in the bottom 20 percent [in terms of income earned] in 1975 were still there in 1991, while 39 percent of them were now in the top 20 percent" (Sowell, Thomas. Basic Economics. Basic Books. New York. 2000. p. 137).

    This striking statistic is important, because it shows how misleading the economic rhetoric of the left is. As Sowell points out, when we talk about the rich and the poor, most often we are talking about the very same people at different stages of their lives. Twenty-year-olds with little experience and education are paid less than they will be paid at forty years of age. 97 percent of the poorest people moved out of the bottom fifth of incomes in only 16 years. And 39 percent of the poorest fifth had joined the richest fifth in the same period. That is impressive even to the most ardent defender of capitalism. One reason the United States does not have an epidemic of kidnapping of the wealthy by the poor (which the reader above describes as commonplace in Latin America and other places) is that there is a more civilized and less risky way to acquire money in this country—earning it.

    What about that 3 percent? They are stuck being poor, it seems. Shouldn’t a moral nation of compassionate people do something about the few who, for whatever reasons, are permanently poor? A nation should do whatever it wants, if what we mean is the people in a country. But a nation’s government should not. Let’s not ignore the other side of this moral question—"doing something about it" usually means demanding more money from taxpayers, who, if they wanted to contribute to help the 3 percent, might do so voluntarily. When an individual takes money from those who earned it to give to those who have not earned it, it is theft; when government does it, to paraphrase Frederic Bastiat, it is legalized theft. The action and violation are the same. This is also a case of the slippery slope made real—a government authorized to violate the right to property will not take long to expand its power and violate other rights as well—history has shown this to be true time after time in place after place. But we don’t need to make this philosophical argument—the practical, economic objection to "helping" the poor is that it does not help them at all.

    In nations that have made the most effort to eliminate poverty through government action, there are more poor people, smaller middle classes, and fewer technological innovations and affordable consumer goods. Some might feel badly that there are a small percentage of people who will be poor all of their lives, even if in many cases they are the cause of their own long-term poverty. But those governments that try the hardest to eliminate the poor end up hurting the other 97 percent as well as the 3 percent they are trying to help, and always either increase poverty in the long run, or inhibit prosperity. People find it unacceptable that 3 percent are forever poor because they are holding on to an unrealizable utopia. The 3 percent needs to be considered in context of every other kind of economic system around the world. In that context, it is a tiny number, certainly small enough for private charity to be of substantial relief. And compared to practically any of these other nations, poor people in the United States are hardly "have-nots."

    2. In 1994, in households defined as at or below the poverty line by the U.S Bureau of the Census, 71.8% had one or more cars (up from 64.5% in 1984); 59.7% had a VCR (up from 3.4% in 1984); 71.7% had a washing machine (up from 58.2% in 1984); and 60% had a microwave (up from 12.5% in 1984). The list goes on, all reflecting a similar trend. The 1984 numbers were themselves substantial increases over previous decades. In terms of material goods and life’s conveniences, "many of today’s poorest households have … more even than the general population had two decades ago" ("Where We’ve Been and What’s Ahead" Dallas Business Review).

    We can dismiss this idea that somehow the poor are worse off today because the rich are even richer than they were before. The argument only makes sense (and not much) if we measure the lives of the poor merely in terms of envy: "Oprah has a yacht and I don’t—my life sucks!" The real way to measure the growing or falling wealth of people is to determine whether the basics and the conveniences of life are more or less prevalent than in years past. The competition, innovation, and profit-motive of capitalism make it exceptionally efficient at providing products at ever-more-affordable prices. That is why in just ten years, VCRs and microwaves went from luxuries of the rich to common appliances even among the very poor.

    Capitalism has been so successful at fulfilling human needs and material wants, poverty has continually been defined upward. One can own a washing machine and dryer, personal computer, car, color television, VCR, microwave, air conditioning, and more, and still be considered poor by the United States government. Just fifty years ago, some of the conveniences owned by today’s poor would have been science fiction to even the wealthy. When politicians and activists say there are more poor people than before, or that the gap has grown between rich and poor, they are ignoring the vast improvement in living standards that continually takes place in our society. And they are misunderstanding the crucial role economic inequality plays in social progress.

    F.A. Hayek, the brilliant economist and social philosopher, points out in The Constitution of Liberty that the gap between rich and poor is a requirement for advancing living standards. Prototypes and early versions of new technology are expensive to make and cannot be mass-produced. Therefore, they must be sold for exorbitant prices in order for it to be economically feasible to produce them. Businesses don’t create innovations unless they can afford to do so, and there is a high cost to develop new devices that might end up benefiting the entire society. The rich buy and enjoy the technology first, and this might create envy. But the effect is that businesses can afford to experiment and test-market and develop more efficient production methods. This is why, at first, personal computers were found only in the homes of the wealthy, and before long, all but the very poorest Americans will have their own computers (and eventually they will as well).

    Hayek shows that this trend also exists internationally. Developments in wealthier nations often find their way to poorer ones. The poorer ones, lacking economic and social structures necessary for the innovations, would never have benefited from them if all nations were equally poor. But the existence of richer nations makes possible the improvements in poorer ones. These improvements in the lives of the poor are not due to the compassion of the rich. In fact, when rich nations try to help poorer ones, they usually cause more harm than good. Intent is not relevant here; we are concerned with results.

    It might seem unfair that some have to wait for the benefits of these developments, but in nations without wealth inequality, the developments never take place at all. People in socialist nations don’t invent very much, and don’t produce these items that they don’t invent at prices that make them affordable to regular people. It is clearly better to live in a society where the rich have more money than the poor and have access to innovations first, but where the poor soon have better standards of living as a result. It helps that in the United States the poor are not stuck being poor for very long.

    It is politically effective to manipulate the bottom 20 percent and feed the jealousy people have for those who seem to live lives of excess. It is also effective to manipulate the unearned feelings of guilt and the economic ignorance of the population-at-large and direct it at the very rich and the entire economic system. Yet a free society not only must allow such excess to exist for moral reasons, but in many ways benefits from its existence. The "have-nots" in the United States have quite a bit as a result, have more with each passing decade, and are not forced to remain "have-nots" for the rest of their lives. An economy that achieves these awesome results should be emulated around the world, and should not be fettered by politicians and activists, who out of ignorance or their own self-serving agendas, seek to control it.

    None of this is to imply that it is easy to be poor in America, or that there aren’t real social problems in many neighborhoods, such as drug abuse, violent crime, bad schools, broken families, and resentment. There are diverse causes of these problems, but as with economic difficulties, many are caused or exacerbated by the government. What is certain is that economic ignorance or intentional misrepresentation of the success of capitalism at improving the lives of the poor is not going to bring any solutions to the above problems. It might help get votes, but it is intellectually dishonest and harmful to the very people who need capitalism the most. Capitalism is the cure for poverty everywhere it has been tried. If there is still too much poverty in the United States, try more capitalism.""

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