Is JW just another denomination?

by John Vogel 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

starScream

There is that. Doubting Thomas said to him "My Lord and my God", and Jesus said "Because you have seen me you have believed...", but did he see God?

First of all neither his name nor title are "Doubting Thomas." That is a man-made name that people have called him and perpetuated oh so often at his proclaimation at John 20:28. He is an Apostle of Christ. You are making Christ less than what this Apostle made of him. Jesus did not say, "Wait just a minute Thomas..." But if you have a desire to deny his full identity then that is your prerogative. There is ample evidence that Jesus is the Almighty. There is nothing else he is identified as in his pre-existence.
So he is either a second true God, not really the Son of God or exactly what he is called in the bible.
How could he have seen God?
He saw the man Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh. Col 2:9 Any who tries to understand it can. Anyone who's prerogative is to reject it can. No he did not see the very being of God. He saw the physical image of God and right now it sounds as though doubting Thomas, as you call him, has a faith far greater.
Paul write in 1John 4:12 " No man hath seen God at any time.
Actually John wrote it, but that isn't important. It is true, no can see God in his very being and live. We can see God in the flesh. That isn't like seeing God though. Do you understand? If you see God in the flesh you see a man. He may also be God in his very nature but all you see is man.
I did not expect to find Jesus being God in the bible. I was raised a JW. When I was born again I read it without bias and found that Jesus is truly the Son of God, very God in the flesh. You ought to not reject it before you understand it.
The trinity, as far as I can see, is a man-made doctrine based for the most part on verses such as 1John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Well that just isn't true. That scripture was altered to make a trinity proof text. The bible calls the Father, God; the Son, God; and the Holy Spirit, God. The apostles made it clear that Jesus was truly the Son of God, very God in the flesh. That he was not and is not an angel, that he created ALL things that were created and Jesus himself claimed to be God. There is no way around it unless you don't want Jesus to be God.
There are so many reasons that Jesus must be God I could go on and on.
the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
In the bosom of the Father? Sounds like unity to me. When you add the Holy Spirit to the equation you have triple unity. God is the only creator and the only savior yet the Son is both those things. He is not God how?
The Son is the First and the Last. The First and the Last is the Alpha and the Omega. The Alpha and the Omega is Almighty God. The Son is not God how? Because he is not the Father?
keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Did you notice how we are equal? That they may be ONE as WE are ONE. We are equals, you and I and are to be one. We are not saying Jesus is the Father. So I don't know how you think that denies their true unity as described in the tri unity concept. In the bosom of the Father? He is truly one with his Father. He shares his very being. Interesting how if you only look at nature so can see the true equality that exists between Father and Son but you think that Jesus is infinately inferior to his Father. As a matter of fact if your idea of Jesus is true can is the weakest example of a Son ever seen. When I have a seen he will be my equal. If I had an e-colus bacterium for a Son he would be more my son than your Son of God is the Son of God that is unless you lower the Father as well.
Jesus says "The Son can do nothing of himself (Or by himself)..."(John 5:19) and "I have not spoken of (or for) myself, but the Father which sent me
If the Father needs the Son for a task does that mean the Father is not God?
IMO, you don't want Jesus to be God. If you did, you would understand. But you don't so you can't.
Jesus calls himself the Good Shepherd. Then when a man calls him Good Teacher he snaps back, "Why do you call me Good? There is no one Good but one, and that one is God." How was it relevant for him to jump all over such an expression? It wasn't unless you realize he is claiming to be God.
What do you want? For him to stand in the temple and say hey pharisees I AM THE GOD OF YOUR FOREFATHERS! He would be dead in two seconds. Every time he came close they tried to stone him.
Oh so when the Apostles Confess it you say, 'Well that doubting Thomas, you can't trust that guy!' Or you try to make it into a contradiction without understanding. But your position is clear. When given the option you lower Jesus. Well, what I do to Him I also do to the Father, and so do you.
Brother, you will see Him for who and what He is if you wish to.
DanTheMan

But Jesus said that by following His Word families WILL be torn apart. He teaches that unless we hate our families and even our very lives, one cannot follow Him.

Yes, this is true. But really, couldn't any controversial religious cult or sect use this line of reasoning to justify the fact that they damage families and tear them apart? They can, and they do. And the shunning JW's do is not a matter of individual choice, it basically amounts to "shun or be shunned".
JW's have a cruel and unscriptural institutionalized shunning policy towards those who don't follow the rules. Ray Franz in his book In Search of Christian Freedom has an excellent chapter on this subject, as to whether the JW disfellowshipping and shunning practice has solid scriptural basis. It doesn't.
A sign of a cult is that there is no honorable way out. As many on this forum will attest to, this is true of JW's.
starScream

But Jesus said that by following His Word families WILL be torn apart.

The Watchtower makes it a policy to tear families apart. Jesus did not say that families should be torn apart. The Watchtower does it as a control mechanism. If you seriously think that is biblical I don't know what to tell you. I hate to see someone go down cult alley without trying to help them but there is only so much I can do.
The context of Jesus words were that "all the world will hate you on account of MY name."
He teaches that unless we hate our families and even our very lives, one cannot follow Him.
Jesus also taught us to honor thy Father and Mother and to love even one's enemy. You are taking him out of context to support a cult. I realize you don't know much about them and think you are perhaps fending off unjustified criticism.
Though I think these are seriously biased, they are none-the-less informative opinions, based (it would seem) on their own POV concerning the WTBTS.
Well, I will take that as endorsement.
The Watchtower claims that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. They really want you to believe that even though the bible makes that an impossibility.
They really want you to believe that all Christian churches are of the devil.
They really want you to just accept everything they teach without question and when those teachings change just accept the changes without question.
They want to keep you away from Jesus and replace him with their organization as your Lord. They will occasionally give lip service to him being "lord" as long as you realize that it is only a temporary role.
They want you to believe for some reason, that Im sure relates to the occult that, Jesus did not rise in the body he died in but instead his body evaporated and when he was raised he was Michael the Archangel again.
They want you to believe that in 1919 Jesus examined all the Churches and picked the Watchtower as his one Church to lead people through the end times.
They want you to believe that in 1914 Jesus returned to earth invisibly. They used to teach his invisible return in 1874 and a 40 year "harvest" leading up to 1914's armageddon but since needed to replace that date with at least SOMETHING happening so they just abbandoned the 1874 date and started over.
They want you to believe that they did not predict armageddon for 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, to end WWII, 1975, 1976, the 20th century but if you can prove to them that they did they will claim new light or that it wasn't really a prophecy so they aren't false prophets.
They want you to believe that they never said abaddon was Satan but if you prove to them they did they will ridicule you for criticizing them for them admitting they were wrong and changing the doctrine, Which of course they never admit to doing unless to drag it out of them.
If you want to join them, be my guest. If you are happier with a religion that loves bombs you into it than a relationship with Jesus Christ more power to ya.They wear sheep's clothing indeed.
All you will get from them is deceit, coverup, false doctrine and a cult that systematically replaces Jesus with itself. And replaces the worship of God with worship of itself. The WTS worships itself.
Jeremiah

Hi all. First time posting here.
After reading through this thread, I find the idea of the Trinity still evokes strong emotions and positions. First, I am not a JW. Yes, I do believe in the Trinity. Does the Old Testament refer to Jesus? Yes. Take a look at:
Zechariah 12:10. The LORD says that "they will look upon ME whom they pierced".
Zechariah 11:13 The LORD being bought for 30 pieces of silver.
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the First and the Last; besides me there is no God."
Or my Favorite, Genesis chapter 18. The LORD ,with 2 angels,stops by for a chat with Abraham. I John 4:12 says no one has seen God at anytime. Why? God is Spirit. However, many persons of the old testament seen the LORD. How? They seen the Son. No other explanation fits.
Lastly, about the Trinity being pagan. Who is the Father of Lies? Satan. Who has seen the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, before being cast out of heaven? Satan. Where do you think he got the idea? Look at Revelation. You have Satan, the AntiChrist and the false prophet. See the resemblance? Remember Ecclesiates 1:9-10 paraphrase " There is nothing new under the sun. See anything new? It has already been in ancient times before us".
That's all for now. God Bless!
jgnat

John Vogel, just about the torn-apart family thing. When Jesus warned his disciples that this will happen, I don't think he intended for his disciples to do the tearing. Jesus is all about healing and repair. The WTS does use this scripture as an excuse for their shunning policy. Not only are families torn apart when one member becomes JW, JW families are torn apart if any one leaves or is kicked out.
...and believe me, there are dozens of ways of getting kicked out of the WTS.
logansrun

Is JW just another denomination?
Um, as opposed to.......?
starScream

Hi Jeremiah, Welcome to the board.
Who has seen the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, before being cast out of heaven? Satan. Where do you think he got the idea?
I used to entertain that idea myself. Upon further study I disagree. I don't think that the demons knew of the Trinity. I still have yet to see a real example of a trinity in pagan antiquity. It is that lack of a trinity in pagan religions that leads me to believe the trinity was unknown by the demons.
It seems the most touted example is Osirus, Isis, Horus of Egyptian mythology.
To me it really isn't a trinity for several reasons. First of all Horus the Son in the equation was created by Isis the Mother. Not only that, Osiris, the Father in the equation dies. Horus became the Chief God known as Ra in certain areas, pronounced like Ray. There may be dipictions of this Triad similar to sculptural dipictions of the Christian Trinity but that is the extent to the similarity. It was not a trinity, it was a panthoen that bore far more resemblence to the Greek pantheon.
If one wanted to attack Christianity looking for Pagan similarities one needed to look no further than Greek mythology. Very similar situations happens all over the place. Hercules, the Son of Zeus being a superhuman mortal, the Son of God in the flesh. The Titans were cast into tartarus at the order of Zeus, the very same thing Paul describes of the demons.
The twist in this epoch is that Zeus, Apollo, Hercules are the Olypians. They rebelled and overthrew the Titans. These are none other than Satan and his demons. Greek mythology is pure satanism. It bears similarities to Judeo-Christianity in other areas as well but you notice the interesting twists. Seeing how the demons have worked in that mythology but failed to incorporate the trinity is why I conclude they knew nothing of it.
Now I will say that by now the demons are fully aware of the trinity which may be one reason for as you mentioned the unholy "trinity" in revelation. Of course the demons are incapable of a real trinity and it isn't really a trinity but it does make a decent attempt at a counterfeit which rules the world.
Jeremiah

Thanks for the welcome, Star Scream. :)
In the beginning, before the fall of Lucifer and his angelic brothers, God in trinity existed. Lucifer wasn't an angel, but the Cherub that guarded the access to the throne of God. He was also a spirit being, like the angels. I have no doubts that all the beings in Heaven were aware of the nature of God and understand many things that we ,here on Earth, simply don't. However, when Lucifer tried to exalt himself above the Most High, he was cast out of Heaven. Along with him went all the angels that held his point of view. They became fallen angels or ,in modern terms, demons.
Trinity worship as a false religion started in Babylon with Marduk, Sertimmus and Talmuz. (spelling probably not perfect, but I am hurrying to make it to work). Why? Satan only perverts what truth he saw in Heaven. He wants to be above the Most High and his kingdom. So he builds a perverted kingdom, based on God's design, but with him as ruler.
Gotta run. God Bless!
willy_think

Christians have one God, JWs have two, they are not Christian.
DJ

Willy,
I agree. The jw's have a "God" and 'a god".
In Rev., Jesus is the First and the Last (the one who was pieced). How can there be two First's and Last's?
John,
Where did you get your opinion that Jesus is not God? Where did you get your John 1:1 translation? Johannes Greber, a spirit medium is where the jw's got their "a god" translation. Also, John......Do you worship Jesus? The jw's do not. If they did......then according to their teachings they would be worshipping the created Michael the archangel. Jesus is not Michael.

Is JW just another denomination?

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