Blood and Ron Rhoades

by Marvin Shilmer 23 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Marvin,

    I know this post may be motivated by the partial posting of this discussion elsewhere and you wanted to make the entire discussion available. So the copy and paste of a portion below is only to wet appetites of those not yet moved to click on the links above and check it out. Yes, it is tedious read but you will be enthralled by the simple reasoning:

    This NGO circumstance would not be too bad if it were not for a few troublesome facts.

    1) The Society has, apparently, recently admitted that, at some point, NGO status became unfitting for Christians. Since this registration and continued registration as an NGO was carried on at the highest levels of our earthly organization, it makes one wonder if the decade of unfitting registered status with this idol organization has had some spiritual effect on our brotherhood. The principal of "spoiling useful habits" applies equally to us all, as individuals and as an organization.

    2) The Society has, apparently, offered an explanation that something changed regarding what is expected of NGOs since 1991 when they originally applied. Since public records have not supported this assertion, and appear to contradict it from what I can tell, it becomes suspicious that the Society has not offered its own records of the 10 year involvement as an NGO. I know that love believes all things in that Christians should be trusting. But trusting does not mean naivety. Since UN officials have no reason to hide or obfuscate its stipulations for NGO status before, during or after 1991, suspicions are natural and should not be quickly dismissed. So, as an active Jehovah's Witness and longtime supporter of the Society, on one hand this situation does not bother me. I agree with Ron and others that the Society has not violated Christian ideals like that of neutrality. On the other hand there is, I believe, serious cause for concern as related above. There is reason for concern over what effect this NGO association has had on our brothers at Bethel and our overall brotherhood as a result. Since even our governing body has, apparently, admitted this registration is unfitting for Christians, not to be minimized is the serious question of how does Jehovah view this episode? (Remember that David too once participated in an unfitting registration, and there were consequences. [2 Sam. 24:1-17] This was an act of one man at headquarters that had an adverse impact on the whole brotherhood of Jews!) There is also good reason for the natural suspicions that persons like Hawk apparently feel. I suppose we will never have enough facts to fully satisfy these concerns, and for that reason it is incumbent that we act as Christians should by leaning on Jehovah rather than any man, and then acting in good conscience. (Rom. 3:4)

    The other subject of interest on your discussion board is that of our policies regarding blood,

    After the above partial sentence the discussion on blood takes off. Don't miss it.

    Jst2laws

  • Risot
    Risot

    I have read this discussion in it’s entirety. Before I go on, I must say if you have any interest or concern for the Watchtowers Society’s stand on blood, please download and read this completely. It is the most comprehensive for/against discussion concerning Jehovah’s Witnesses blood policy that I have read to date, including the posted elder’s letters to the Society.

    To what extent you find this conversation relevant depends on the degree that you or your family associate with Jehovah’s Witnesses. As for myself, I am an active Jehovah’s Witness, therefore I regard this material with utmost importance.

    I give Ron Rhoades credit. I give him credit for two reasons: 1) He is the first person I’ve seen to tackle valid concerns about the blood policy head-on. 2) He gives the best argumentation that can be had pro the Watchtower’s doctrine on blood.

    The following is a review of points I picked out during this once-read discussion (it will probably take me a second reading to fully understand some of the ideas that were being conveyed. There were some points where both writers, more Rhoades than Shilmer, completely lost me in what they were saying):

    As Brother Shilmer brought out, there are two distinct questions regarding the Watchtowers current doctrine on blood. They are:

    1. Does the Apostolic Decree prohibit today’s medical uses of donor blood?
    2. Is there sound scriptural reasoning to make the distinctions we do between forms of blood parts like platelets and hemoglobin?

    As Brother Rhoades brought out, question 1 must be answered first. For if the answer is no, then question 2 has no relevancy.

    1). Does the Apostolic Decree prohibit today’s medical uses of donor blood?

    Brother Rhoades arguments for ‘yes’ revolve around the ideas that blood is equated with life and thus incontestably sacred, and that God retained blood of living creatures as His alone. He contests that the Mosaic Law is not an extension of the Noachian Law, but rather the Mosaic Law perpetuated the Noachian Law based on the same sacred principle: "life is in the blood." He maintains that the Noachian mandate was a total prohibition and that Noah and his descendants understood this to be true, though not explicitly stated.

    Though making several valid points, in the end I find Brother Rhoades argument that the Noachian Law against blood was a total prohibition to be an assumption. I believe he argues successfully that blood is sacred. I have no doubts here. But as Brother Shilmer brought out, sanctity does not establish that we need God’s express permission for uses beyond specifically stated prohibitions. Brother Rhoades argues that it is not stated prohibitions that are the controlling factor, rather it’s principles. “Prohibitions are only specific applications of principle,” he says. I agree. However, the only ‘principle’ that applies in this case is the sanctity of blood. Thus, he has not addressed the idea that sanctity of blood does not establish that we need God’s express permission to use it beyond specifically stated prohibitions.

    The fact that I feel Brother Rhoades is jumping to a conclusion-not-stated is evidenced by his own decision of what he would do had he been instructed by God to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge. Would he even sit under it? He states that he “would need some strong indication that God wanted [him] to sit in its shade before [he’d] even approach it (like Him placing a chair under it!).” However, the fact of the matter remains – Adam and Eve were instructed to not eat from the tree. They were not instructed to abstain from approaching it, admiring it, sitting under it. Eve could have continued to admire the tree and would not have violated God’s stated prohibition against this sacred thing. Now, granted, I see no problem with Brother Rhoades view that he would never sit under the tree, but I would object if he felt anyone else would have violated God’s mandate by sitting under the tree and thus would have died.

    A confusing part of Brother Rhoades argumentation is whether he feels we are to not to eat blood or not to use blood. He uses the terms interchangeably in this discussion. If he feels we should not use blood, then of course eating would fall under it. However, Brother Rhoades himself indicates that using blood in and of itself is permissible. He asks the rhetorical questions:

    Is it a violation of blood’s sanctity to examine an animal’s blood for disease before eating the flesh? Is the study of the wonderful properties of blood a “use” of blood which shows a lack of respect for the sanctity of blood?

    “Examining” and “studying” are in fact using. He does clarify a little more be stating we should not use to the degree of “showing lack of respect for the sanctity of blood.” However, the question immediately comes to mind – Is saving a life with blood transfusion using blood in a way shows lack of respect for it’s sanctity? I don’t know how it shows anymore lack of respect than studying it’s wonderful properties!

    If Brother Rhoades truly does mean we should not eat blood, then I’m sorry, eating is not the same as transfusing! Transfusing blood is not digesting blood. Brother Rhoades attempts to show that the eating and transfusing of blood are one in the same. He says, “Certainly blood in transfusions are acting like blood, and it is an inescapable fact that blood, “acting as blood,” serves an essential part in supplying the body nutrients and in building tissue.” He then provides references to show that ‘eating’ and the ‘functions of blood’ both provide nutrients to the body. Thus, by infusing blood, we are in fact eating. I don’t know, but to me this sounds like lawyer talk. It is a far far stretch to equate eating with the natural function of blood.

    After reading Brother Rhoades complete apologia regarding question 1, I feel at the very most, he provides a possibly valid view of why one would abstain from blood transfusion. It takes a stretch for this view to work, and relies on interpretation not explicit in the Bible. Certainly, he has not proven this mandate should be followed with the strictness that the Watchtower Society ascribes to it.

    Again, I will give Brother Rhoades credit – he stuck to his guns and made a valiant effort.

    2). Is there sound scriptural reasoning to make the distinctions we do between forms of blood parts like platelets and hemoglobin?

    Brother Rhoades attempts to answer this question with “testimony of [Jehovah’s] creative works.” However, on this question, he utterly fails and even shoots himself several times in the foot. He argues that one can conclude that from Jehovah’s use of fractions (fractions being any derivative of blood other than white cells, red cells, platelets, or plasma) God has given his express approval for us to use them. Brother Shilmer brought up the point that there is no “creative work” were hemoglobin is naturally transferred between circulatory systems – so why is hemoglobin permissible under the WTS doctrine. Brother Rhoades responding by saying “that evidence of the transference of a couple of fractions is enough to reasonably demonstrate that all fractions must be excluded from our doctrinal prohibition.” The problem with this is that white cells, red cells, platelets, and plasma are all fractions themselves! It doesn’t matter how much of a fraction they are, the fact is they are a fraction of a whole; the whole being blood. So by Brother Rhoades own reasoning, white cells, red cells, platelets, and plasma should be permissible since “evidence of the transference of a couple of fractions is enough to reasonably demonstrate that all fractions must be excluded from our doctrinal prohibition.”

    Furthermore, transfer of white cells (leukocytes), a fraction not permitted by the WTS, is evidenced in Jehovah’s creative works! Newborn babies receive leukocytes from their mother’s milk! So, using Brother Rhoades reasoning, white cells should be acceptable!

    The fact is the WTS does not distinguish white cells, red cells, platelets, and plasma from other fractions because of God’s express permission through creative works. They separate them because of what man has defined as “primary components.” There is simply no Biblical support for this. The Society would have been a lot better off banning use of blood or any fractions thereof. At least then it would be consistent. The fact that they don’t has faltered by own faith and belief in regards to question 1.

    Indeed, if the June 15, 2000 Watchtower had never came out, I probably would have never questioned our stand on blood. The fact that it did, and blared inconsistency, stumbled me greatly concerning my conviction.

    The answer to question 2 is an undeniable no. Assuming question 1 is yes, there are only two possible views of blood fractions that make sense: 1) all individual fractions of blood are permissible for transfusion because they do not constitute “blood” as mentioned in the Bible, 2) no individual fraction of blood is permissible for transfusion because they do constitute “blood” as mentioned in the Bible.

    Prior to reading this discussion between Marvin Shilmer and Ron Rhoades, I had serious concern that my stand, as a Jehovah’s Witness, on blood was unscriptural. I honestly went into the discussion hoping that Brother Rhoades would shed some light to clear up my doubts. I honestly did. However, in the end, Brother Rhoades has confirmed to me what I had previously thought – the doctrine that prohibits blood transfusions is indefensible.

    Risot

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    From the discussion, Mr. Rhoades refuted natural whole blood transfusions between monchorionic fetuses because:

    There are several valid reasons why this cannot be considered a parallel to anti-bodies/fractions being passed from a mother to her baby. First, we are actually looking at essentially one circulatory system not two as you assert. The blood is not removed from one and introduced into a foreign blood stream, but "naturally" belongs to both twins. There is no interruption of the corporeal circulation in utero. This being the case, we do not have a parallel to fractions being passed between two disparate systems. This, then, can not be used to override or modify God’s command to abstain from blood, which when removed from its body can only be used for sacrifice or poured on the ground. Therefore your example is not relevant.

    Hmm .... last time I checked, the Watchtower considers a fetus a "human being". In monochorionic gestation (twins or more), each human being (fetus) is separate. Each has their own unique blood system and own placenta just like they have their own unque toes, fingers and brains. Their separate circulatory systems takes energy to their organs. And they are separate humans whether they are in the mother or outside the mother. Sometimes in these gestations, arteries and veins from each human being's (fetus') blood systems connect at the placenta areas. The unique whole blood transfers naturally out from the one human's (fetus') blood system and into the next foreign human blood system of the other fetus.

    The Oct. 1990 and June 15, 2000 WT magazines made it quite clear that it was important that JWs understood that the blood systems of the mother and fetus were unique and separate and that whole blood did not cross between the two (of course red blood cells do but they conviently lied about that). But here is a case where whole blood does cross between two humans (fetuses) with separate blood systems.

    If Jehovah God thought blood transusions were so bad don't you think He would have ensured that these natural blood transusions during monochorionic gestations would not happen!

    The blood systems of both fetuses are separate just like both fetuses are humans in the eyes of the Watchtower. If the fetuses blood systems were fully connected then serious Twin To Twin Syndrome would occur in 100% of the cases and not 15%.

    hawk

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Very fine comments, Risot! However, I find almost nothing redeeming in Rhoades' comments. They are even more ridiculous, self-serving and deceptive than those of the Society itself.

    Hawkaw, one wonders, based on Rhoades' reasoning, whether the Watchtower would permit one of a pair of monochorionic twins to accept a transfusion from the other after they were born. Not likely! But if God permitted mixing their blood before birth, then why not afterward? What could they possibly offer by way of Scriptural argument? Nothing -- only bullpucky like Rhoades'.

    AlanF

  • Jourles
    Jourles

    TTTS can stand up against and pummel ANY argument presented by the WTS, scripturally or medically. I feel that this one single medical condition is the only basis needed for tearing down the Watchtower wall on blood. For one, it envelops the entire physical blood structure without worrying about fractions of this and components of that. It deals with two separate and distinct human beings sharing the same *whole* blood in a natural setting. No scriptural reasoning is needed. By simply using the Watchtower's own comments about blood fractions being passed between two humans, mother and fetus(two separate and distinct human beings), and then making these same fractions allowable due to this natural setting, they must also be forced to look at TTTS in the same way. They simply cannot ignore it.

    I still wonder if the WT will ever address TTTS in a QFR...probably not. If they do, it may be years in the future when they finally make blood transfusions a matter of conscience. It would be an easy way out for them to use TTTS as the basis for allowing everything blood. The only problem is, the longer they wait, some witnesses would question their timing seeing as TTTS has been known about for quite some time now.

  • Scully
    Scully

    Risot writes:

    If Brother Rhoades truly does mean we should not eat blood, then I’m sorry, eating is not the same as transfusing! Transfusing blood is not digesting blood. Brother Rhoades attempts to show that the eating and transfusing of blood are one in the same. He says, “Certainly blood in transfusions are acting like blood, and it is an inescapable fact that blood, “acting as blood,” serves an essential part in supplying the body nutrients and in building tissue.” He then provides references to show that ‘eating’ and the ‘functions of blood’ both provide nutrients to the body. Thus, by infusing blood, we are in fact eating. I don’t know, but to me this sounds like lawyer talk. It is a far far stretch to equate eating with the natural function of blood.

    I certainly have to agree with you, Risot, that a blood transfusion is in no way anywhere similar to eating blood. Blood transfusions are given with the SOLE PURPOSE of increasing oxygen carrying capacity in cases of severe blood loss. Without the hemoglobin from red blood cells being present in sufficient quantity to transport oxygen to the organs and tissues, tissue death occurs. Most seriously, this happens in vital organs: the brain, the heart, the kidneys.

    An analogy would be to compare the human body to a vehicle. The WTS likes to compare the use of blood to adding fuel to the gas tank, however, it is more accurate to compare it to the use of oil to lubricate the engine. We don't think about adding oil until the light goes on. We can go through many tanks of fuel before having to change the oil in our car - just as we may rarely need to have blood; but we do tend to have several meals daily. However, if you ignore that warning light and don't add oil when it is needed, it doesn't matter if there is fuel in the gas tank or not. Your engine is going to seize up and your car will be ruined. It's not something we need to think about most of the time, but we do need to act immediately when that oil light starts to flash its warning.

    Love, Scully RN

  • MacHislopp
    MacHislopp

    Hello Marvin,

    thanks for the interesting information.

    I'll download the lot...digest it and come back with some comments.

    Personally I do belive that Scully, Jourles, AlanF and Hawkaw gave

    already plenty ...to think about.

    Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Jourles,

    Its not TTTS (Twin to Twin Transfusion Syndrome) which is key to the arguement even though I must admit I stumbled over all this a few years ago through an investigation into TTTS.

    What stands up and pummels the WTS is what happens in "diamniotic-monochorionic gestestation" - or put a more simpler way the pregnancy of identical twins!!!!! In the process 85 percent of little ones have no problem and infact one Doctor notes that the more connections there are between the two fetuses blood system the less likely the fetuses will have TTTS.

    Hope that helps a little. My essay is still at http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/twins.htm

    One of these days I have to tweak it a bit to some of the suggestions provided by Marvin and one other nice fellow to make it even a stronger case but unfortunately I just have not had the time.

    hawk

  • Risot
    Risot

    AlanF: "Very fine comments, Risot! However, I find almost nothing redeeming in Rhoades' comments..."

    Indeed, I found nothing redeeming in Bro. Rhoades comments...although he did admit that he was wrong with the absurd thinking that there is a difference between the digesting of hemoglobin versus red cells. It's my hope that he eventually applies those same reasoning skills to other absurd thinkings regarding the WT blood doctrine.

    In my previous comment, I was simply expressing my admiration for Bro. Rhoades' willingness to discuss the matter head-on. Most blood doctrine apologists avoid such discussions. Such was the case with Rolf Furuli on the British Medical Journal discussion. Furuli avoided Marvin Shilmer; Rhoades could have done the same thing, but didn't. He stuck his head out. He responded to every assertion Bro. Shilmer made, even though some of those responses were "ridiculous, self-serving, and deceptive." I admire his effort because his willingness to discuss the matter, in the end, exposed the doctrine for what it really is.

    Marvin,

    Did Rhoades ever respond to your question 3 near the end of the discussion, namely:

    3. Regarding your illustration of a rental contract prohibiting the renter from using any trees, in your opinion,
    would the tenant be in violation of such an agreement if they intentionally removed a portion of one of the trees
    (in effect, a limb) and dissected it into parts like water and carbohydrates before they used it or them?

    -Risot

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Hello, Risot

    I appreciate your observations and comments. In answer to your query of whether Rhoades ever answered my question number 3 regarding his "tree" illustration, no, he has not. No one has to imagine why, either. Given that his illustration is similar to the WTS' position, an honest and straightforward answer to the question represents an outright and concise refutation of Rhoades' apologia in defense of the WTS' doctrinal position on blood.

    _____________

    Marvin Shilmer

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