slimboyfat

I’ve not even finished formatting it yet.

To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

Sorry folks. The Jews may call on Jehovah with their NWT translation. I will call on Jesus

slimboyfat

The NWT basically agrees with the traditional rendering of this verse. So it’s not a translation issue, but one of interpretation.

1 Cor 1:2 to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

It’s not an easy expression for JWs to explain according to their theology. Perhaps scripture is not entirely consistent on the point of Jesus’ status or whether worship should be directed to him. Frankly there are difficult scriptures to explain on both sides of the debate. But taking the New Testament as a whole I definitely think that Jesus is presented as a representative of God and is not identified with God himself. Whether Jesus as God’s representative should be “worshipped” and what that means may be more debatable.

cofty

taking the New Testament as a whole I definitely think that Jesus is presented as a representative of God and is not identified with God himself. - SBF

I think there is a danger in viewing the NT as a single consistent document. There is an evolution of Christology in the NT.

cofty

Whether Jesus as God’s representative should be “worshipped” and what that means may be more debatable. - SBF

9] Early Christians rendered WORSHIP to Jesus.

The Greek word rendered worship is proskenyo. Depending on the grammatical context different forms of the same word are used in scripture. For simplicity we will substitute the simple form proskenyo in each case. Whenever it is used in connection with Jehovah the NWT translates it accurately as worship. However when it is used with reference to Jesus the word obeisance is used instead. While it is true that proskenyo can denote an act of respect which falls short of worship there are a number of instances in the New Testament where the context clearly demands the stronger translation.

When Jesus walked on the sea of Galilee and calmed the storm, the apostles were astonished at his power;
'Then those on the boat 'proskenyo' him saying you are really God's Son.' - Matt.14:33

When Jesus identified himself to the man he had cured of blindness, the man said;
'I do put faith in him Lord. And he proskenyo him.' - Jhn. 9:38

When the two Marys met the resurrected Jesus in the garden;
'They approached and caught him by his feet and proskenyo him. - Matt. 28:9

As Jesus was ascending back to heaven he blessed his disciples and they;
'Having proskenyo him returned to Jerusalem with great joy.' - Luke 24:52

In each of these examples it is not simply an act of respect that is being described but an act of worship. That it involved more than the physical act of bowing is particularly clear in the account involving the two Marys where the scripture, having told us that they caught him by the feet goes on to add that they proskenyo him. In these and other examples it is noteworthy that Jesus never once offers a word of reproof to anyone involved. It is enlightening to compare this with three other occasions where the word proskenyo is used in the New Testament.

'As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet and proskenyo him. But Peter lifted him up saying, Rise I myself am also a man. - Acts 10:25,26

Similarly John was so overcome with the awesome visions of Revelation that twice he fell down at the feet of the angel who was showing him these things;
'At that I fell down before his feet to proskenyo him. but he tells me, Be careful do not do that. All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers.' - Rev.19:10

In Revelation, John heard every creature in heaven and on earth say;
'The lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and blessing. To the one seated on the throne and to the lamb be the blessing and the honour and the glory and the might forever and ever. And the four living creatures went saying Amen.' - Rev.5:12-14

Such an outpouring of adoration can not be interpreted as anything less than worship. Immediately after these things John tells us what he saw next;
'And the elders fell down and worshipped.' - Rev. 5:14

In this graphic description of an event that involved every one of God's creatures there is no distinction at all between the worship and adoration given to the one seated on the throne and that offered to the lamb.

If we begin with the assumption that worship is not be give to Jesus then we are forced to explain all the falling at his feet, that the gospel writers were careful to record for us, as simply gestures of respect. This despite the fact that elsewhere Cornelius and John are reprimanded for the same thing. We also have to invent the unbiblical notion of relative worship and contradict the most fundamental of Old Testament truths by allowing for worshipping God through someone else, a kind of legalised idolatry. Even all of this is not enough to deal with the amazing scenes described at Rev. 5:11-14.

slimboyfat

Yes definitely. Bart Ehrman’s book is good. (How Jesus Became God) He identifies a number of different Christologies in the NT from adoptionism through to the high Christology of John.

Ehrman caused a bit of a stir by claiming that Paul viewed Jusus as an angel based on Gal 4:14. I think he makes a good argument.

But I think, in common with many scholars, Ehrman ascribes too high a Christology to the gospel of John. However highly John viewed Jesus he still considered God to be the source of life, and Jesus derived his life from God the same as all creation. (John 6:57)

cofty

I'm still agreeing - it's starting to feel weird.

JoenB75

I don't think it is possible to make the Christology of John too high.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 14:9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

The Father is God, the Son is God. Different modes, but still God.

cofty

the Son can do nothing by himself

I.B.S.A. members were witnesses of Jesus Christ.-JW`s members are witnesses of Jehovah.

slimboyfat

cofty

JoenB75

slimboyfat

cofty

cofty

slimboyfat

cofty

JoenB75

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

cofty

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