WTS, Judicial Committe's and WTS Apologists.

by hillary_step 13 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Hello :

  In a recent thread in which I corresponded with SwordOf Jah regarding the WTS and its ‘Judicial Committee’ arrangement, the following discource took place :

  Sword wrote :

  You obviously think a lot of yourself. You say I didn't present a defence of your accusation that JWs borrowed the Judicial Process from other religions. I don't believe I needed to present a defence. That is only your thought and you can't really prove it.

  HS replied :

  If I can prove that the Methodists and Quakers were using exactly the same judicial process that is now used by the WTS to discipline their adherents before the WTS instituted its own theological policies, will you accept that the WTS have copied this process from Babylon the Great? I offer this before all readers of this post as a challenge.

  Sword wrote to me privately, sending this note:

  Send me the information you have. You can see that I people keep poping into the thread only to insult me. You yourself have insulted me. If you would like, you can send the information to prove your point on the origin of the judicial process. Then I will start a new thread with my comments on it.

  HS replied: Further to our discussion on-line, in which I stated that other religions that pre-dated the WTS had in actual fact set the precedent, with very little variation indeed, for the WTS judicial process, I will begin this discussion by offering two quotations. These quotations, are both from documents, sermons or books, in first edition, that I own. I have offered statements that deal with specific crimes, subsequently avoiding the charge of coincidence.

  
  1) THE DOCTRINES AND DISCIPLINE OF THE METHODIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH 1884 ( first published 1842 ) WITH AN APPENDIX - Bishop Harris
  "#235 - If a Member of our Church shall be accused of endeavoring to sow dissension in any of our Societies, by inveighing against either our Doctrines or Discipline, the person so offending shall first be reproved by the Preacher in charge; if he persist in such pernicious practice he shall be bought to trial, tried by three discreet members of the Church, and if found guilty should be expelled".

  Of course Members could appeal their expulsion :

  "#253 - In all cases of trail and conviction under the provisions of #214-222, an Appeal shall be allowed to a Judicial Conference, constituted as hereinafter provided, if the condemned person signify his intention to appeal at the time of his conviction, or at any time within seven days thereafter when he is informed thereof.. this done the parties shall withdraw, and the Judicial Conference shall then decide the case."
  Once sentence has been passed and the Member is expelled his punishment was:
  "#256 - After a Preacher shall have been regularly tried and expelled he shall have no privileges of Society ( communication or ecclesiastical ) or Sacraments in our Church without confession, contrition and humiliation, and satisfactory reformation.
  This was shunning by silence, being that members of that religion, including family members were forbidden from discussion with that person.

  2) DISCIPLINE OF THE YEARLY MEETING OF FRIENDS, HELD IN NEW-YORK, FOR THE STATE OF NEW-YORK, AND PARTS ADJACENT - 1810 ( Quaker Disciplinary procedures )
  #356 - If a member of the Society admits to such divers moral lapses as might invoke the wrath of God they must be tried before three elders of the Church. Witnesses may be presented if confession and contriteness ( repentance - Italics mine ) is not present…..
  #359 - If contriteness and reparation is not noted, and if appeal is not made, the judiciary must withdraw for discussion and upon a majority sensibility must expel the person from their community. Communication with such a person is forbidden.
  #460 - An expelled member may approach the elders given sufficient time for contrition when he may be accepted back into the community.

  I am able to pre-date these quotations with a sermon published by W.W.Webster in 1771 in his TWO SERMONS UPON THE SABBATH: GIVING A SCRIPTURE HISTORY OF THE INSTITUTION; SHEWING THE NATURE AND ENDS OF IT; AND THE RIGHT MANNER OF OBSERVING IT PREACHED AT WARE IN HERTFORDSHIRE. This is a very early document of Seventh Day Adventist interest, in which Apostates ( i.e those who do not keep the Sabbath ) were to be tried before three elders, expelled if unrepentant and punished by ‘shunning’, but I do not feel this is necessary as the WTS did not introduce its star chamber tactics until the later 20’s, under the leadership of Rutherford. I would be very interested in your comments.

  Sword Replied :

  Thank you for info. Very interesting.

  Sword gave permission for his private mail to be used in this thread. I thought that it might be of interest to others who wonder about the structure of the JC process.

  I believe that I have successfully proved that the WTS, once again borrowed its doctrine from other Adventist groups ( ‘Babylon the Great’ ) and claimed the process as Scriptural and unique to themselves, which it clearly is not and was not when originally instituted by the WTS.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  rocketman

  Other churches also set up tribunals to judge cases of what they consider to be serious parting from church teacings. Some clergy have been brought before tribunals in order to defend teachings of theirs that were seen to be at odds with church doctrine.

  HS, good research and presentation. This info is very interesting.
• 

  minimus

  Yes, the JC is quite similar to the Salem witch trials.
• 

  Makena1

  HS - very interesting info indeed.

  What didn't the borg borrow from Adventists and Methodists?

  Maybe Solomon was right - there is nothing new under the sun!

  Great post!

  Warm regards,

  Mak
• 

  SwordOfJah

  hillary-step:

  Again, you have presented very interesting information. I was wrong on this one, but don't let it get around that I admitted it.
• 

  blondie

  This is very interesting and enlightening, HS. I always wondered why the WTS did not follow the example in Israelite times by holding public hearings and having witnesses testify publicly. There is no information in the New Testament as to judicial hearings but the WTS has tried to point to Deuteronomy 16:18, 21:18-20, 22:15, 25:7 to bring a scriptural basis to judicial hearings. I found this informaton from the WTS interesting:

  1/22/81 Awake p 17

  "Speedy and Public Trial"

  Guidelines for judicial procedure in the United States are found in the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution . "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial . . . to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him." Did justice in Bible times employ these guidelines?

  Indeed it did. Criminal trials were doubtless much speedier in Israel than they are at present in countries such as the United States, where clogged courts and elaborate procedure give rise to many delays.

  Since the local court was situated at the city gates, there was no question about the trial being public! (Deut. 16:18-20) No doubt the public trials helped influence the judges toward carefulness and justice, qualities that sometimes vanish in secret star-chamber hearings . What about witnesses?

  Witnesses

  in Bible times were required to testify publicly . For this reason they were warned not to be influenced in their testimony by the pressure of public opinion "so as to turn aside with the crowd in order to pervert justice." Perjury was not punished with a jail term, but with whatever punishment the false witness had sought to bring upon the defendant—even death!—Ex. 23:2; Deut. 19:15-21.

  There is no comparison made with judical proceedings among JWs today because

  a) There are no public trials, only 3 (or more elders), the accused one, and for only part of the time, any witnesses. No one else is allowed to hear what is said.

  b) The witnesses are not required to testify publicly.

  Since it it obvious, that more than the older men, the accused and the witnesses were in those gates, the WTS certainly was not using the Israelite pattern.

  Now I understand where they got the process; not from the Bible but from a source they have condemned as tainted, Christendom.

  Blondie
• 

  Room 215

  Excellent contributions all.... To Blondie's citation of the 1981 Awake! I would like to ask anyone to consider why any party to a judicial proceeding would object to having those proceedings transcribed or recorded so as to preserve the integrity of the event and eliminate any possibility of a misunderstanding or worse, a deliberate representation of the testimony and evdence? Caesar's courts employ stenographers for this very purpose. Also, the judicial proceedings as practiced by the Watchtower is in many ways the direct opposite of Paul's advice to the Corinthians. In this latter case, Paul refrains from naming the offender (JWs read the name to the congregation) but explains plainly to the assembly the nature of the offense so as he said ``the rest might be afraid" (wary of a potentially damaging and costly lawsuit, the gun-shy WTBTS declines to specify).

  So, by their failure to explicate the sin, the congregation's rumor mill is free to ``fill in the blanks" as it conjectures over the real reason for the dsicplinary action, and at the same time, an opportunity to drive home a useful object lesson for the benefit of the flock is lost.
• 

  hillary_step

  Sword,

  Again, you have presented very interesting information. I was wrong on this one, but don't let it get around that I admitted it.

  lol...No problem. I was so wrong about the WTS that I devoted all the years of my youth to it - you are in good 'apostate' company....

  Best regards - HS
• 

  metatron

  Where did the Watchtower Society get their 'new light' interpretations of the 'generation' of Matt. 24

  AND their adjusted view of the sheep and the goats judgement?

  Christendom! Their commentaries had correct information, while the Society struggled with a chronology

  they didn't want to admit was wrong.

  metatron
• 

  Gadget

  If the Isrealites held public trials/hearings, and this is also a constitutional right for americans under the 6th amendment, why are the judicial committee hearings private and not public? Not that I want to do my dirty laundry in public, but is this another example of the society not following the laws of the land?