ClassAvenger, I'm going to try and answer your questions (I have only read your post in this Thread so far):
I don't doubt the Trinity, but again I had a talk with one of my JW friends and he gave me several bible passages which he wants me to explain, most deal with the Trinity, and others deal with the belief in heaven. He says that they show that Jesus was less than his Father, and was a separate person, and the others state that paradise will be here on earth. The versicles he uses are not that complicated to be explained, but I am weak on the scriptures, and need a lot of help. Sorry if some things or explanations are not clear enough, ask if you didn't understand what I meant. I'm going to list them here:
The JW is correct that Jesus is a separate Person from The Father and a separate Person from the Holy Spirit.
That is what Trinitarians believe. The JWs do not realize that Trinitarians already believe that, so they try to use that as an arguement against the Trinity.
The JWs confuse Trinitarians with Oneness Pentecostals (Oneness Pentecostals believe that The Father, The Son, and The Spirit were all the same Person).
Jesus Christ is definitely not "less than the Father". Everything that The Father has The Son also has.
Jesus Christ is in willing subjection to The Father. The Father is the God of The Son and the Head of The Son.
I will post Scriptures below.
According to the Bible, there is definitely going to be "a New Heaven and a New Earth". But, the problem with the Watchtower Society is, that they teach that only CERTAIN "Anointed" Christians get to go to Heaven to live with Jesus and Jehovah forever and ever, and the others have to live on Earth forever and ever (if they remain faithful enough) and they never get to live with Jesus or Jehovah.
The Bible says that God is not partial and that there should be NO class distinctions between different Christians, so that means ALL Christians will be able to live in the New Heaven AND in the New Earth.
ClassAvenger said:
Trinity - Matthew 24:36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. My comment: His argument here was for me to explain that not even Jesus knows when the second coming will be, only God. He says how come if Jesus is God, he doesn't know when it will be.
Well, that is an interesting question, and it is a pretty good question actually.
Jesus Christ was 100% Human and 100% God on Earth. He had TWO Natures - a Divine Spirit Nature and a Human Nature.
As 100% God, Jesus knew all things, He was omniscient, and He could read hearts and minds of humans, which only God can do. He also fully knew everything about The Father, which no human being can do.
As 100% Human, Jesus grew up, Jesus gained knowledge, wisdom, and He learned obedience. He could be tempted (but could not sin). Jesus died and was resurrected.
I cannot explain how Jesus could be 100% God and 100% Human. That is why 1 Timothy 3:16 reads:
1 Timothy 3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the Flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. The New World Translation reads differently however: 1 Timothy 3:16: Indeed,
the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘
He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’ The Watchtower Society claims that the Trinity cannot be true because it is "too mysterious", and "too hard to understand", and so forth. But, at the same time, the Watchtower Society admits that
God always existing in the past is "too hard to understand" and is "beyond the human mind to comprehend." Also, the Watchtower Society also teaches that JEHOVAH can choose to BLOCK OUT future events, so that He does not know everything that will happen in the future. So why couldn't Jesus do the same? Notice these Quotes on Jehovah "blocking out future events":
Insight Book, Volume 1, Pages 853-854: Selective
exercise of foreknowledge. The alternative to predestinarianism, the selective or discretionary exercise of God’s powers of foreknowledge, would have to harmonize with God’s own righteous standards and be consistent with what he reveals of himself in his Word. In contrast with the theory of predestinarianism, a number of texts point to an examination by God of a situation then current and a decision made on the basis of such examination.
Thus, at Genesis 11:5-8 God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to "see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it." (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1) God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said, "For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me."—Ge 18:19; 22:11, 12; compare Ne 9:7, 8; Ga 4:9. Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. This would mean that, rather than all history from creation onward being a mere rerun of what had already been foreseen and foreordained, God could with all sincerity set before the first human pair the prospect of everlasting life in an earth free from wickedness. His instructions to his first human son and daughter to act as his perfect and sinless agents in filling the earth with their offspring and making it a paradise, as well as exercising control over the animal creation, could thus be expressed as the grant of a truly loving privilege and as his genuine desire toward them—not merely as the giving of a commission that, on their part, was foredoomed to failure. God’s arranging for a test by means of "the tree of the knowledge of good and bad" and his creation of "the tree of life" in the garden of Eden also would not be meaningless or cynical acts, made so by his foreknowing that the human pair would sin and never be able to eat of "the tree of life."—Ge 1:28; 2:7-9, 15-17; 3:22-24.
To offer something very desirable to another person on conditions known beforehand to be unreachable is recognized as both hypocritical and cruel. The prospect of everlasting life is presented in God’s Word as a goal for all persons, one possible to attain. After urging his listeners to ‘keep on asking and seeking’ good things from God, Jesus pointed out that a father does not give a stone or a serpent to his child that asks for bread or a fish. Showing his Father’s view of disappointing the legitimate hopes of a person, Jesus then said: "Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?"—Mt 7:7-11.
Thus, the invitations and opportunities to receive benefits and everlasting blessings set before all men by God are bona fide. (Mt 21:22; Jas 1:5, 6) He can in all sincerity urge men to ‘turn back from transgression and keep living,’ as he did with the people of Israel. (Eze 18:23, 30-32; compare Jer 29:11, 12.) Logically, he could not do this if he foreknew that they were individually destined to die in wickedness. (Compare Ac 17:30, 31; 1Ti 2:3, 4.) As Jehovah told Israel: "Nor said I to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek me simply for nothing, you people.’ I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright. . . . Turn to me and be saved, all you at the ends of the earth."—Isa 45:19-22.
In a similar vein, the apostle Peter writes: "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise [of the coming day of reckoning], as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2Pe 3:9) If God already foreknew and foreordained millenniums in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which individuals would receive eternal destruction, it may well be asked how meaningful such ‘patience’ of God could be and how genuine his desire could be that ‘all attain to repentance.’ The inspired apostle John wrote that "God is love," and the apostle Paul states that love "hopes all things." (1Jo 4:8; 1Co 13:4, 7) It is in harmony with this outstanding, divine quality that God should exercise a genuinely open, kindly attitude toward all persons, he being desirous of their gaining salvation, until they prove themselves unworthy, beyond hope. (Compare 2Pe 3:9; Heb 6:4-12.) Thus, the apostle Paul speaks of "the kindly quality of God [that] is trying to lead you to repentance."—Ro 2:4-6.
Finally if, by God’s foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus’ ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of individuals, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men. (2Co 5:14, 15; 1Ti 2:5, 6; Heb 2:9) The impartiality of God is clearly no mere figure of speech. "In every nation the man that fears [God] and works righteousness is acceptable to him." (Ac 10:34, 35; De 10:17; Ro 2:11) The option is actually and genuinely open to all men "to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us." (Ac 17:26, 27) There is no empty hope or hollow promise set forth, therefore, in the divine exhortation at the end of the book of Revelation inviting: "Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free."—Re 22:17.
ClassAvenger said:
- John 17:3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent. My comment: He said that how come Jesus was sent by God, how could God send God?
Jesus is God and The Father is God. They are not two Gods, They are Two Persons in Unity as One God.
You can ask the JW this question: "Do you believe that The Lord sent The Lord?" The Bible says that The Father is The Lord, and the Bible also says that Jesus is the ONLY Lord.
Matthew 11:25 (NWT): At that time Jesus said in response: "I publicly praise
you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.
1 Cortinthians 8:5-6 (NWT): For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
Jude 1:4 (NWT): My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to
our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. You can then ask the JW this question: "Since the Bible says that Jesus is the Only Lord, does that mean that The Father IS NOT our Lord? Does that mean that The Father is not The True Lord?" Then, you can ask the JW: "Does John 17:3 prove that The Father is The Only True God to the exclusion of Jesus? If so, then why doesn't Jude 1:4 exclude The Father from being the True Lord?" ClassAvenger said:
- II Corinthians 1:20-21: For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God. - John 16:23: And in that day ye shal ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Argument: How come Jesus says he will give it to you, if Jesus himself is God?
Jesus is a separate Person from The Father. But they are both in Unity as One God. ClassAvenger said:
- Colossians 1:15: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Argument: How come Jesus was firstborn of every creature, that means that he is not eternal.
I have written to AGuest about this on another Thread, and I will post it below.
First, though, let's take a look at Scriptures which show that Jesus is Eternal:
John 1:3 (NWT): All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. Hebrews 1:10 (NWT): And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. Since ALL THINGS were created THROUGH Jesus, then how could Jesus be a created being? That would mean Jesus was created THROUGH Jesus! Micah 5:2 (NWT): "And you, O Beth´le·hem Eph´ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times,
from the days of time indefinite. Micah 5:2 (KJV): But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old,
from everlasting. Ask the JW what the phrase "from everlasting" means.Psalm 93:1-2 (KJV): The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
Habakkuk 1:12:
Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Now, here's the info about Jesus being the "Firstborn of all creation": No where in the Scriptures does it say that Jesus was ever created. That is a false and deceptive claim that the Watchtower uses. In fact, the Watchtower even inserts words into the New Testament that were never in the original:
Colossians 1:16-18 (New World Translation): because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things;
They added the word "other" 4 times, even though it is no where in the original Greek Text, in order to deceive people into believing that Jesus was created first, and then Jesus created "all other things".
Also, the JWs claim that since Jesus is called "Firstborn" that this means He was created first. That is also a false claim that the Watchtower uses.
But just look at Colossians 1:18:
Colossians 1:18: And He is the Head of the body, the Congregation, who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have the preeminence,
Jesus is called The Firstborn from the dead. What does that mean? Does that mean Jesus is the "First created from the dead"? Definitely not. That makes no sense.
Or, does it mean Jesus was the first person ever raised from the dead? No. Was Jesus the first person raised from the dead in an Immortal Body? Yes.
Why then, is He called "Firstborn from the dead"? Because Jesus has Preeminence over all others who are raised from the dead.
Jeremiah 31:9: They shall come with weeping, and with prayers I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way; they shall not stumble in it, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.
Notice, Ephraim was not truly the first son born in that family, but he was called the firstborn, because he was to have all of the preeminence and all of the rights of the first born son.
Therefore, the word "Firstborn" can mean having Preeminence over something. And that is why Colossians 1:15-18 says Jesus has Preeminence in all things.
Also, notice how the English Majority Text Version and the International Standard Version read at Colossians 1:15:
English Majority Text Version: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER all creation,
International Standard Version: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER all creation.
There is also a different Greek word that could have been used if Paul had been saying that Jesus was the First-Created One, instead of the Firstborn One.
Does it mean that Jesus is part of creation because it says Jesus is "The Firstborn of creation"?
Well, check out the following Verses:
Matthew 11:25: At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Since The Father is "Lord of Heaven and Earth", does that mean that The Father IS Heaven and is Earth? No, it means that The Father is Lord OVER Heaven and OVER Earth.
Matthew 15:31: Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.
Since God is called "God of Israel" does that mean God IS Israel? No, it means He is God OVER Israel.
Matthew 22:32: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Since God is called "The God of Abraham"? Does that mean God IS Abraham? No, it means He is God OVER Abraham.
Now let's look at Colossians 1:15:
Colossians 1:15 (NWT): He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
So, in Colossians 1:15, it is saying that Jesus is The Firstborn OVER all creation.
What if Colossians 1:15 had read like this?:
Colossians 1:15: Who is the image of the invisible God, the Lord of all creation;
If it had read like that, the JWs would not be saying that Jesus was part of the "all creation". But, in actuality, that is what Colossians 1:15 is saying -- Jesus is the Preeminent One over all creation!
ClassAvenger said:
- John 1:18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Argument: How come no one has seen God, not even Jesus?
John 1:18 is saying that no human has ever seen God The Father.
Compare with these Verses:
John 5:37 (NWT): Also,
the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me.
YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure;
John 6:45-46 (NWT): It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me.
Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father. This actually proves that Jesus is God The Son, and here's why: Several times in the Old Testament, people SAW GOD, however, Jesus said that NO ONE has EVER seen THE FATHER. That means that in the Old Testament, when people saw GOD, they saw JESUS -- God The Son. The Watchtower even teaches that Jesus, before and after coming to Earth, saw God The Father in Heaven. I will comment on the rest of your post soon. I hope this helps.
