Doubting the Trinity and Paradise (page 3)

DJ

Firstborn over all creation is the way that it makes sense with the rest of the bible.This is how the KJV has it translated Firstborn doesn't always mean the first one born in the bible but it means the one who receives inheritance. King David was not born first, actually he was the last born son of Jesse BUT..in Psalms God said that he would "place him as firstborn" It meant rank not birth order. Jesus is highest in rank of all creation. He was the creator Hebrews 1:10. John 1 Collosians...the word [other] in the NWT is a lie and never was in the Greek...ever.

UnDisfellowshipped

StarScream,

That is a very interesting viewpoint of Colossians 1:15 which I have never considered before.

It is definitely a possibility that your viewpoint is right.

Since Jesus Christ entered into creation, and added a created nature to His Infinite Eternal Nature when He became Flesh, Colossians 1:15 could be saying that Jesus, as a Human, is the Pre-Eminent Created Being, in the same way that He is the Pre-Eminent One out of all who will be resurrected.

It does still seem to me that Colossians 1:15 is saying that Jesus is the Firstborn over all creation, but, your viewpoint could be correct.

The Watchtower's viewpoint is just flat-out wrong.

Ravyn

dear Dawn,

If you read those scriptures in a Bible other than New World Translation they do not as readily fit Borg dogma. Here is a quote from my own deconversion story that I have posted some months back on this board:

<<<

If there was one single thing that took me out, it was a careful study(with no ulterior motive--as it was something I just came upon accidentally) of Revelation 7: 9 and 11 in the WTBS' own Kingdom Interlinear. Briefly, in verse 9 it is talking about the Great Crowd, and in verse 11 it is talking about the angels. Now unless the angels are going to be on the Earth, the Great Crowd is in Heaven. The Greek word that identifies where these two groups are is exactly the same. There is not degrees of 'before the throne' indicated here, nor does the Greek word used support that stretch of a theory(for this I spoke with a professor of ancient languages at Harvard). There are other Greek words that could have been used to differentiate a different place, but that is not how the inspired writer wrote it. It says that the angels, in the circle of throne-Heaven, will worship in the same place as the Great Crowd-who came OUT of the Earth--and that place is before the throne. This is not talking about the 144,000. Verse 14 reiterates the place where the Great Crowd are, using the phrase again-and adds the phrase 'in the divine habitation of him'---so now WTBS would have us believe that not only do the angels come down to the Earth to worship but that God himself lives here? I know they explain it that his tent will spread over the Earth---but that is not what the SCRIPTURE says. The scripture says that the Great Crowd will join him in his tent. No where does it indicate that this tent will be on Earth. No where. And the logic that they use to say that his tent will be extended to the Earth is flawed logic, making scripture fit WTBS' own dogma. >>>

Ravyn

ClassAvenger

Thanks for all the information guys, it is really helping me out a lot. Yes, I admit that I do not fully (or partially, lol) understand the Trinity because I have never taken a study on it at church. Maybe it did pass by sometime, but back then I would fall asleep all the time. Well, thanks for everything, keep posting!

DJ

Ravyn,

It is also interesting that Rev 19 speaks about the "great crowd in heaven". I showed my mom that ans she went pale but then she questioned the elders and they told her that THAT great crowd is angels. She bought it. I distinctly remember being taught that that the way we can tell the difference between the 144,000 and the great crowd in Rev 7 was because of the set number vs. the great crowd which no man can number. I never expected to see another great crowd that would be taught as being different. I agree with you completely that the great crowd in verse 7 is NOT an earthy scene. I can't believe I ever fell for that. love, dj

DJ

Class Avenger.....This might be of great value to you, I hope so. I hope there is ink in your printer! love, dj

Note: verse references marked wtih a "*" indicate a clear reference to Christ's Deity in the NWT.
WHO IS GOD?
Jehovah
*De 6:4 Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
*De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah

No Other "Gods"
*Is 44:6-8 besides me there is no God. there is no Rock besides me.
*Is 43:10 Before me there was no God formed.
*Is 45:5,22 with the exception of me there is no God.
*Is 46:8-11 no other God, nor anyone like me.

No Other "gods"
*De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah
*Ex 20:2-3 must not have any other gods

ALL OTHER GODS OR gods ARE FALSE
Baal
*Judges 6:31 Baal, God

Dagon
*Judges 16:23-24 Dagon, god

Satan
*2 Cor 4:4 Satan, god

Herod
*Acts 12:21-23 Herod, a god

ARE THERE MANY GODS OR MANY gods? *Ps 96:4-5 One True God by nature
*Gal 4:8 those who by nature are not gods.
*1 Cor 8:4-5 One God in 8:4. 8:5 is referring to idols who by nature are not gods, as seen in Gal 4:8

This helps us understand that being God is much more than a title or a name. It is the very nature of the being so described as God. God is God because of who he is, not because people call him God. WHO IS LORD?
God
*Ac 17:24 God, Lord of heaven and earth
*Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
*Ac 4:24 God... Sovereign Lord
*Ac 17:24 God... Lord of Heaven and Earth

Jehovah
*De 10:17 Jehovah is Lord of lords
*1Tim 6:15 Jehovah is Lord of lords

Jesus
*1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
*Ro 10:9 Jesus is Lord
*Rev 17:14, 19:16 Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of lords.
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

This verse (Lk 2:11) shows that Jesus was born Lord, not that he became Lord later. HOW MANY LORDS ARE THERE?
One Lord
*Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
*1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ WHO IS SAVIOR?
God
*Titus 1:3 Our Savior, God
*Titus 3:4 Our Savior, God
* 1 Tim 1:1 God, our Savior
*2 Sam 22:3 God my Savior
*Ps 7:10 God, a Savior
*Ps 17:7 God, o Savior
*Ps 106:21 God their Savior
*Is 43:3 God your Savior
*Is 45:15 God of Israel, a Savior
*Lu 1:47 God my Savior
*1 Tim 2:3 our Savior, God
*1 Tim 4:10 God, who is a Savior
*Titus 2:10 our Savior, God
*Jude 25 the only God our Savior

Jehovah Alone
*Is 43:11 I am Jehovah and besides me there is no savior
*Is 45:21 Jehovah alone is Savior
*Hos 13:4 No savior but Jehovah
*Is 49:26 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser
*Is 60:16 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser

Jesus
*Php 3:20 we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ
Titus 2:13 we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Jesus Christ.
NWT introduces [the] into the previous verse to obscure that Jesus is called God there.
*Titus 1:4 God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior
*Titus 3:6 Jesus Christ our Savior
2 Pet 1:1 our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ.
NWT adds [the] to the previous verse to obscure the fact that Jesus is called God there.
*John 4:42 the savior of the world
*Ac 5:31 Chief Agent and Savior
*Ac 13:23 a savior, Jesus
*Ep 5:23 a savior of [this] body
*2 Tim 1:10 our Savior, Christ
*2 Pet 1:11 the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*2 Pet 2:20 the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*2 Pet 3:2 Who is being spoken of here? Jehovah or Jesus?
*2 Pet 3:18 our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*1 John 4:14 the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world WHO IS OWNER AND LORD?
Jesus
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
*Ep 4:5-6 one Lord, one faith. Who is the one Lord? Jehovah or Jesus? WHO FORGIVES SINS?
God
*Mk 2:7 God alone can forgive sin
*Lk 5:21 God alone can forgive sin

Jesus
*Mk 2:5-7,10 Jesus forgives sin
*Lk 5:24 Jesus forgives sin WHO PURCHASED CHURCH WITH HIS OWN BLOOD?
God
Ac 20:28 Why is [Son] in brackets? How can this be "understood" without being in the Greek text explicitly? SAVED BY FAITH IN WHO?
Jesus
*Ac 4:12 There is not another name under heaven by which we must be saved. Whose name is this?
*Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name. Who is "him?"
*John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
*John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life
*1 John 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
*1 John 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
*Ro 3:19-26,28 man is declared righteous by faith in Jesus
*Ro 10:9 declare that Jesus is Lord and exercise faith... for salvation WHO CREATED ALL THINGS?
God
*Ep 3:9 God, who created all things

Jehovah alone
*Is 44:24 I, Jehovah..., stretching out the heavens by myself. This does not allow for a "junior partner" in creation. Jehovah clearly states that He Himself created the heavens without the aid of anyone else.
*Is 48:13 My own hand laid the foundation of the earth and my own right hand extended out the heavens. This does not allow a "junior partner" in creation. See also Heb 3:1-4

Jesus
*Jo 1:1-3 all things came into existence through him. If Jesus is a created being then he is a "thing". But this verse says all "things" came into existence through Jesus. This excludes Jesus from the realm of "things" and puts him in the class of being uncreated, eternal, not part of the created world.
Col 1:16 by him all [other] things were created. What is [other]? How can that be "understood" if it isn't present in the original language?
Rev 3:14 arkhe = beginning Note: same arkhe applied to Jehovah in Rev 21:5-7. How is Jehovah the "beginning" as the WT demands that arkhe must be translated? [Should You Believe In The Trinity? p.14]
*Ps 102:24-27 Who? Jehovah?
*Heb 1:10-12 This is a direct quote of Ps 102:24-27 and is applied to Jesus. See also Is 44:24

Is Jesus a "master worker" with Jehovah in creation?
WT says yes from Prov 8:3. Prov 8 is a personification of Wisdom speaking in a feminine voice (which NWT does not accurately reflect even though WT has confessed of the speaker's feminine gender in Prov 8.) See Prov 7:4 and 9:4 for the gender of "wisdom" in Proverbs. Why did the NWT translate wisdom in chapter 8 as "it" instead of "she" as the original language indicates?
WHO IS FIRST AND LAST?

Jehovah
*Is 44:6,8 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the last
*Is 48:12 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the last

Jesus
*Rev 1:17-18 I am the First and I am the Last, and the living one; and I became dead...
*Rev 2:8 the First and the Last, who became dead and came to life again
*Rev 22:12-13, 20 Look! I am coming quickly, ... I am the first and the last
*Rev 22:16,20 I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you... Yes; I am coming quickly.
*Rev 4:8 Holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is coming. WHO IS ALPHA AND OMEGA?
Jehovah
*Rev 1:8 Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty

Jesus
*Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega = first and last. Who is this?
*Rev 22:16 Shows Jesus as speaking in vs 12-13
*Rev 1:12-18 Who is the Son of man? Jesus. What does he call himself? First and Last. First and Last = Alpha and Omega = the Almighty. Jesus is Almighty God.
*Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega is "coming." Is Jehovah "coming?" SHOULD WE BOW BEFORE ANOTHER GOD OR god?
No
*Ex 34:14 Don't prostrate before another god.

Jesus
*Php 2:9-11 Knees bend at the name of Jesus

Father
*Ep 3:14 Knees bend before the Father WHO RECEIVES WORSHIP?
God
Matt 4:10 Worship the Lord God only

Jesus
In all of these verses the NWT has replaced the word "worship" with "obeisance."
Matt 2:2,11 Magi worship Christ
Matt 14:33 Disciples worship Jesus
Matt 28:9 the Marys worship Jesus
Matt 28:16-17 The eleven worship Jesus
John 9:38 The healed blind man worshipped Jesus
Heb 1:6 All angels worship Jesus
Rev 5:11-14 Millions of angels worship Jesus

People worshipped other people or angels and were rebuked for it. See Rev 19:10; 22:8-9; Ac 10:25

What is obeisance?
Watchtower defines it as follows, "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person..." (Reasoning, p.215) Applying the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance to the verses describing people giving obeisance to Jesus, we could say that they "prostrated themselves before a god" since Jesus is "a god" in Watchtower theology. This is a clear and logical conclusion to reach by following the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance and who they believe Jesus is. Upon reaching this conclusion we need to go immediately to the following verse.
*Ex 34:14 For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.

While the Watchtower attempts to draw the unwarranted conclusion that "obeisance" to Jesus is somehow different than worship, their own definition of obeisance leads them into clear and direct conflict with Ex 34:14. Either Jesus is God or those rendering obeisance to him are guilty of "prostrating themselves before another god."

This refutes the Watchtower's claim that "obeisance" to Jesus is ok because it is not worship. The Watchtower has inadvertently admitted that worship is given to Jesus in the Reasoning book p. 214. The question is stated as follows, "Does the fact that worship is given to Jesus prove that he is God?" JESUS NAME IS EXALTED IN NEW TESTAMENT*Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
*Lk 10:17 demons are made subject to us by use of your name
*Ac 16:18 I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her
*Lk 24:47 on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached
*John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
*John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him
*Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name
*1 Jo 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
*1 Jo 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
*Ac 4:12 there is not another name under heaven... by which we must be saved
*Jo 14:13-14, 26 whatever you ask in my name, I will do it
*Ac 3:16 our faith in his name has made this man strong
*Ac 4:7-10,30 healing and signs come in the name of Jesus
*1 Co 1:2 with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
*Ep 1:21 far above every name named
*Php 2:9-11 the name that is above every other name
*Ac 1:8 you will be witnesses of me WHO KNOWS MEN'S HEARTS?
Jehovah alone
*1 Ki 8:39 Jehovah alone knows all men's hearts

Jesus
*Rev 2:23 Jesus searches the hearts of all men
*Mat 9:4 Jesus knew their thoughts
*Mat 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts
*Lk 6:8 Jesus knew their reasoning
*Lk 9:47 Jesus knew the reasoning of their hearts FULLNESS OF DEITY
Jesus
Col 2:8-9 What does KIT say? Divine quality or Deity? What does "all" mean? What does "fullness" mean? Theotes vs. Theiotes or Essence vs. Quality. Theotes is "fullness" used here to describe Jesus, showing that the "essence of God dwells in him bodily." It isn't a question of him having divine qualities. Instead it shows that he is God in the flesh. WHO IS THE SHEPHERD?
Jehovah
*Ps 23:1 Jehovah is my Shepherd
*Is 40:10-11 Jehovah is like a shepherd

Jesus
*Jo 10:11 Jesus is the fine shepherd WHO IS MIGHTY GOD?
Jehovah
*Is 10:20-21 the Mighty God, Jehovah
*Jer 32:18 the mighty one, Jehovah

Jesus
*Is 9:6 Jesus is Mighty God IS JESUS GOD?In all but the last verse of the following references the NWT mistranslates each one.
Titus 2:13
Heb 1:8
Ps 45:6
2 Pe 1:1
1 Jo 5:20
*Is 9:6 Mighty God IS JESUS JEHOVAH?*Ro 10:9-13 Publicly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that he was raised from the dead and you will be saved.
*Ro 10:9 (Whose name are you calling on for salvation?)
*Ro 10:10 With the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. (What public declaration? That Jesus is Lord.)
*Ro 10:11 None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed. (Who is "him?" He is the subject of verses 9 and 10, Jesus.)
*Ro 10:12 One Lord, rich to those calling on him. (On who? Vs 9 identifies that we are to call on Jesus by name.)
*Ro 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Return to vs. 9 to see whose name must be called on to be saved. It is Jesus. What Paul was doing in vs 9-13 was clearly explaining that Jesus is God based on OT verses about God (Joel 2:32) applied directly to Jesus. Verse 9 and verse 13 are references to the same profession that saves, precisely that Jesus is Lord. Verse 13 is identifying the same one to call on for salvation that is named in verse 9.)
*Ep 1:21 Jesus' name above every name in this system and the system to come
*Ac 4:12 Salvation in Jesus' name alone
*Php 2:9 Jesus' name above every other name
*Ex 34:12-15 Jehovah's command not to prostrate before other gods. Note that Jehovah condemns little "g" gods here. If JWs were to bow before Jesus then according to their theology they would be bowing before a little "g" god. This would violate Jehovah's command. But Jehovah has said that at the name of Jesus every knee will bend. (Php 2:9-11) Would Jehovah command that people bend their knees to Jesus when he has expressly forbidden bowing before other gods?
*Ep 3:14 compare with Php 2:9
*Is 45:22-24 for OT parallel of bowing to the Father that Paul was quoting in Php 2:9 and applying to Jesus in saying that "every knee will bend down and every tongue will swear". It is a direct quote from the OT referring to Jehovah and is applied clearly and directly to Jesus. Paul definitely believed that Jesus is Jehovah.
Zech 14:3-5 with Mat 25:31 and Ac 1:11-12 Who is returning with the holy ones? Jesus or Jehovah?
Zech 14:5 with 1 Thess 3:13 IS JESUS ALMIGHTY?*Heb 1:3 He sustains all things by the word of his power. Is this mighty or almighty? Could anything less than "all might" sustain "all things?"
*Rev 4:8 Jehovah God, who was and is and is to come, the Almighty. Who is coming? Jehovah or Jesus?
*Rev 22:20 Jesus is coming as identified in Rev 4:8. Jesus is Almighty God. IS JESUS OMNIPRESENT?*Mat 18:20 Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
*Mat 28:20 I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things DOES JESUS HAVE ALL AUTHORITY?*Ma 28:18 all means all WHAT IS HEADSHIP?*1 Co 11:3 Headship, not quality of being. Is man a superior human in quality compared to woman? No. Therefore this verse cannot be teaching that Christ is inferior to the Father if it is not teaching that women are inferior to men. If it is teaching that Christ is inferior in quality to the Father, then language demands that the same inferiority of quality be applied to women, and we know that it cannot be. WHAT DOES FIRSTBORN MEAN?*Co 1:15 Jesus is firstborn of all creation. Does this refer to order of creation or to the headship of Christ? The Greek word used is proto-tokos. There is a different Greek word that specifically means 'first created', proto-tiktos.
*Ps 89:20-27 David was not born first.
Also, who was Joseph's firstborn? See Ge 41:50-52, Ge 48:1-20, Ps 89:27, and Jer 31:7-9 IS JESUS EQUAL TO JEHOVAH?*1 Cor 15:28 This verse identifies a change in the Son's position relative to the Father. What is the Son's position before subjecting himself to the Father? Equal to! This verse describes a change in position. The Son "becomes subject" to the Father. This means that at some point he is not subject and he changes position to "become subject." Note the presence of "when" and "then" in the verse. DOES JESUS SHARE JEHOVAH'S GLORY?*Is 6:1-5 with John 12:37-41 Isaiah's vision of Jehovah's glory is applied by John to Jesus in verse 41. He says Isaiah saw his glory. Who did John mean by [his] and who did Isaiah see?
*Is 42:8 with John 17:5. Jehovah will not share his glory yet Jesus has glory alongside Jehovah
*John 12:45 Can any creature claim this? No. Jesus is not like any created being.
*Is 48:11 Jehovah will not give his glory to anyone else. IS JESUS THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF THE FATHER?*John 12:45 He that beholds me beholds him that sent me
*2 Co 4:4 Christ, who is the image of God
*He 1:3 the exact representation of his very being
*John 8:19 if you knew me, you would know my Father also
*John 12:44 he who puts faith in me
*John 14:7-9 know me, know my Father also
Col 2:9 Theotes vs. Theiotes or (Essence vs. Quality) IS JESUS MASTER?*Col 3:24 Slave for the Master, Christ WHO IS THE STUMBLING STONE?
Jehovah
*Is 8:13-14 Who? Jehovah.

Jesus
*1 Pe 2:6-8 Who? Jesus. HOLY SPIRIT SENT IN WHOSE NAME?
Father
*Lk 10:17 Father's name.

Jesus
*John 14:26 Jesus' name WHO DO WE SERVE?
Jehovah alone
*Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"

God and Jesus
*Jam 1:1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ

Jesus
*Ro 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus
*2 Co 5:15 Live for him who died for us
*Ga 1:10 Christ's slave
*Phil 1:1 Paul and Timothy, slaves of Jesus
*Co 3:24 slave for the Master, Christ
*Co 4:12 Epaphras, a slave of Jesus Christ
*Jude 1 Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ CHRIST'S HUMILIATION OR EMPTYING OF HIMSELF TO BECOME A MAN*Php 2:7 he emptied himself
*John 14:28 The Father is greater than I am
*John 20:17 I am ascending to my God and your God
*Ac 17:30-31 he purposes to judge by a man he has appointed
*1 Co 11:3 Is this quality of being? Is man by nature superior to woman? Or is this headship which does not imply any innate superior quality of the one holding the headship? Yes. See 1 Co 15:28. WHO HAS WITNESSES?
Jehovah
*Is 43:10 "You are my witnesses" says Jehovah
*Is 44:6-8 you are my witnesses

Jesus
*Ac 1:8 You will be witnesses of me
*Ac 13:31 who are now his witnesses
Ac 8:35 Philip witnessed about Jesus IS JESUS MICHAEL?*Dan 10:13,21 Michael, one of the foremost princes
*Dan 12:1 Michael will stand up
*Jude 9 when Michael had a difference with the Devil he did not dare to bring a judgment against him
*Lk 4:8 Jesus rebukes satan
*Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels worship him
*Php 2:9 the name that is above every other name
*Heb 1:6 Jesus is above all angels. The text does not say "all other angels." It says all angels and shows that Jesus is not included in that group. Thus he cannot be Michael the Archangel. COME TOGETHER IN JESUS' NAME*Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name HEALING COMES IN JESUS' NAME*Ac 4:7-10 Healed a lame man by faith in the name of Jesus
*Ac 3:16 his name, by [our] faith in his name, has made this man strong SIGNS COME IN JESUS' NAME*Ac 4:30 signs and portents occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus DEMONS ARE SUBJECT TO JESUS' NAME*Lk 10:17 the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name WHO ANSWERS PRAYER?
Father
*Jo 15:16 Father's name

Jesus
*John 14:13-14 Jesus answers
*Lk 10:17 Jesus' name
*Ac 7:59-60 Stephen prayed to Jesus IS CHRIST IN US?John 15:4-5 NWT says 'in union with us'. This is especially inconsistent seeing that similar Greek construction 'in the vine' doesn't have 'union with' inserted into it.
John 17:23,26 Why 'union with' added to verse 23? In vs 26 same phrase of love 'in them' doesn't say 'in union with'.
Ro 8:9-10 God's spirit in you... Christ in union with you. Vs. 9 shows the Spirit "in you." Vs. 10 says Christ is "in union with you." This obscures our deep personal relationship with Christ, with him living "in us." In vs. 9 "in you" comes from Greek [en humin]. Vs.10 also says [en humin] but the NWT chooses to obscure the issue by translating it as "in union with." Why the inconsistency?
2 Cor 13:5 Jesus in us is the test of the faith. Once again NWT has added 'union with.' More examples of addition of 'union with': Ga 1:15-16, Ga 2:20 IS CHRIST'S SPIRIT EQUAL TO GOD'S SPIRIT*Ro 8:9 True Christians have God's spirit and Christ's spirit dwelling in them. WHO RAISED JESUS?
God
*1 Thess 1:9-10 Whom he [God] raised up from the dead
*Ac 2:24 God raised Jesus from the dead.

Jesus
*Jo 2:19,21 I will raise it up WHO IS THE JUDGE OF MAN?
Jesus
*Jo 5:22-23 Jesus
*2 Cor 5:10 Jesus WHO IS LORD OF THE SABBATH?
Jesus
*Ma 12:8 Jesus JESUS' CLAIMS ABOUT HIMSELF*Jo 5:18 The Jews understood Jesus made himself equal with God.
*Jo 10:28-33 The Jews said "You make yourself God."
*Jo 10:36 "I am God's Son" is a claim to a unique relationship with God. Jews considered it blasphemy because Jesus was claiming to be God by saying this. They wanted to stone him. There are five reasons for stoning:

Spiritism Lev 20:27 Blasphemy Lev 24:10-23 False Prophecy Deut 13:5-10 Stubborn son Deut 21:18-21 Adultery or rape Deut 22:21-24 Lev 20:10 JESUS AT BIRTH
Lord
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become Lord later or was he Lord from birth?

Christ
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become the Christ at his baptism by John?

starScream

class avenger,

I do not fully (or partially, lol) understand the Trinity because I have never taken a study on it at church.

I doubt that is going to help you much. most clergy just call it a mystery when they can't answer your questions.

here, you can read my dialogue with a guy about the trinity here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/53346/1.ashx

we get into the knitty gritty.

if you want further explaination i have given the subject much study and am fully confident that i can handle your questions.

starScream

DJ,

I showed my mom that ans she went pale but then she questioned the elders and they told her that THAT great crowd is angels.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it can't be the Angels because they shout SALVATION and glory and power belong to our God... Angels have no salvation.

but check this out. Im sure you have seen matt 8:11 where JESUS says Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in Heaven. You might want to explain to her that the wedding feast of the lamb happens in heaven for all the saints and then>>> Rev 21:1-2 where the old heaven and the old earth are gone and new jerusalem comes down out of heaven prepared AS A BRIDE dressed for her husband...3 the dwelling of God is with MEN and HE will live WITH them. They will be his people and God himself will live WITH them and HE will be their God.

heaven comes to earth. that is the new heavens and the new earth.

DJ

I agree Star. My mom won't hear me. Whatever the elders say is true no matter what. My dad however, recently listened very intensely when I read Isa 44:24 and Job 9:8 to him from his bible. He asked me if it really says "alone". He went deep into thought for a minute but when I started to attribute creation to Jesus, he looked at me very angrily with the same look that the elders use to give me whenever I mentioned Jesus for longer than they thought was necessary. I thought it was best to just leave my dad with his thoughts about what "alone" means for now rather than push him. I do have to get back to him soon with it though, because I guess he must be rather confused. I can't imagine what he must be thinking. Atleast with the dub thinking he gave some credit to Jesus as the master worker....but now he must be thinking that Jesus had nothing to do with it. Oh, what did I do? I just pray that he is receptive and that I can get some time with him alone. He is very sick with brain cancer and I am hopeful that I can reach his heart with this. I almost feel like it isn't the right timing because of his med's and the confusion that his disease causes but I can't leave him where I did. Any suggestions? I pray that he doesn't freak on me. love, dj

pamkw

to have so many folks following the same book and all of them walking away with a differnent meaning on the same issues is a sad commentary for someone who is supposed to be as gifted as god at giving directions

Hey JT

I have always wondered the same thing. If God is so smart and organaized what's with all the mystery. When I was really into be Christian I bought the whole trinity thing, figured I didn't understand it so I would take it on faith. And besides it was directly opposite of what I grew up believing so I was going to give it a chance.

Now that I don't know what I am I don't care. And I am not even sure the Bible is for real so the Trinity is not that important.

Pam

Doubting the Trinity and Paradise

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