Firstborn of all Creation - What does it refer too? (page 3)

coalize

Q : Firstborn of all Creation - What does it refer too?

A : Just refer to some words in a very old book!

Another question?

WillYouDFme

DUDE - The Bible is a GREAT BIG PILE OF HORSE CRAP.

JW Answers - go back to church and enjoy.

cofty

JWA and I have had a useful exchange of PMs to 'clear the air'.

I accept that he wants to help JWs and especially those who are studying with them to realise that the Watchtower is wrong. When debating a JW it's not unreasonable to start from a working assumption that the bible is the word of god and then show that the organisation has misinterpreted it.

However my issue is that the ministry headed by JWA takes the bible literally and wants to attract new recruits to a form of evangelical christianity. In my opinion - as an ex-jw and an ex-evangelical - this is to substitute one cult for another.

I would like to start a new thread on this topic soon. JWA has agreed to take part when he has time.

Steel

Comparing evangicals to Jehovah witnesses is idiotic. The WTS is a hell of a lot more dangerous.

OneGenTwoGroups

Comparing evangicals to Jehovah witnesses is idiotic. The WTS is a hell of a lot more dangerous.

Evangelicals are JW lite on most issues, but on the fundamentals, sex and science, they're exactly the same.

slimboyfat

TI used to spend a lot of time debating the Trinity with evangelicals!

The New Testament is much closer to a JW understanding of who Jesus is than the Trinitarian churches.

The New Testament is pretty clear and consistent that Jesus is a created being who has been elevated by God to the highest position in the universe.

Jesus is the firstborn of creation, just as he is the firstborn from the dead (in the same passage) the first one to be resurrected to immortality.

Just some of the scriptures that show this include (all quotes from the English Standard Version, emphases mine):

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

John 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.

Gal 4:14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

1 Cor 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Of course Trinitarians have “answers” for all these verses, and their own “proof texts” too. But what is striking is how straightforward a non-Trinitarian reading of the New Testament is compared with the gymnastics of Trinitarian interpretations.

Steel

a, I don't give a shit about religious dogma. The WTS destroys lives and families . Comparing it to evangelical the church isn't a fair comparison.

b. The trinity is based on the idea Jesus was the visible touchable manifestion of God or Lord in the old testament. Its not about proof texts. it's about having a basic understanding of the bible narrative.

It's sad when you can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way.

cofty

I don't give a shit about religious dogma. The WTS destroys lives and families . Comparing it to evangelical the church isn't a fair comparison - Steel

That's because you have never seen evangelical christianity from the inside. It is a spectrum but there is no doubt at all in my mind that a sizeable part of the evangelical and pentecostal movement is a every bit as much a cult as the watchtower. Google ex-christian forums to meet thousands of people who disagree with you.

b. The trinity is based on the idea Jesus was the visible touchable manifestion of God or Lord in the old testament. Its not about proof texts. it's about having a basic understanding of the bible narrative. - Steel

The lord of the OT was a moral monster. Monotheism is central to the bible narrative. If you can explain succinctly in your own words how the father is god, Jesus is god, and the holy spirit is god, but there is only one god, then you are the only person in human history to do so. JWA has refused to even attempt it.

cofty

what is striking is how straightforward a non-Trinitarian reading of the New Testament is compared with the gymnastics of Trinitarian interpretations - SBF

I agree but some of your 'proof texts' actually don't work.

Trying to prove the trinity to a JW is a fool's errand. It is far better to show them that the way they view Jesus is very different from the early church...

coalize

Comparing evangicals to Jehovah witnesses is idiotic. The WTS is a hell of a lot more dangerous.

No way. Evangelists are extremely more dangerous than JWs. They spread the same kind of shit, but unlike JWs, they have huge political influence.

JWs destroy only their family with their stupid view. Evangelists are destroying the world with their stupid view.

Firstborn of all Creation - What does it refer too?

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