"Reinstatement Party" Called Off Per The Society

by minimus 96 Replies latest jw friends

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Euphemism,

    IW... if you're not a Christian, you have no right to presume to dictate what Christians should believe.

    I was not dictating I was stating my view, my conclusions of what seems to be correct. I have just as much right to tell a Chriatian what I think is correct as a Christian has to teach non-Christians how to worship God!

    There is much solid evidence out there which gives a firm rise to the extremely troubling (for a sincere Christian) and horrifying idea that all is not well with our beloved Gospels and the rest of the NT.The road for many exJWs is not a pretty one, first Jesus in effect dies and along with him the NT and of course the OT. Then for some God himself dies.

    To believe that we can take JWs on this merry little ride of exposing the Watchtower and leaving it at that does not work and many exJWs don't want to stop there anyway. We strip away everything, everything. Some are happy to leave it all behind some struggle with the void, the vacuum of no Christ, no Bible and maybe no God. It is difficult, for some it is almost life threatening. I say this because JWs who encourage others to leave must realize that for many JWs what will be abandoned may very possibly be faith itself. I firmly believe that JWs who love where they are and love God and their neighbor, are better off staying in their religion. Some brothers are working towards reform and they have my full support and I intend to help them in any way I can. Many JWs need to keep their traditions and their faith and they will, but they will leave behind the destructive behaviors which have enslaved them not to God or the Christ but to men.

    As for Paul, I like the man! He did what he thought was right and good for his time. He also did not teach much of what his Lord taught though. Jesus fought the religious leaders of the Jews and their rough treatment of the lowly, Paul really does not. Jesus taught many insightful illustrations and parables, yet Paul does not touch on them. Interestingly, many times when Paul is discussing a subject where he can call on the recorded words of Jesus for support, he does not. Why is this? Some believe it's because Paul did not know all that Jesus taught and he did not even know the parables. Some believe that because the NT is arranged with the Gospels first, then Acts, and then the letters the assumption is born in the mind of the reader that the Gospels were penned first and therefore everyone in the 1st Century including Paul were familiar with them. In reality though it is thought that they probably were penned well after Paul's time. This then would explain why Paul did not preach the Jesus we know in the Gospels.

    Some of Paul's rules which have impacted the brotherhood:

    With regard to men taking the lead,

    "He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way - for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of God's church?" 1Timothy 3:4,5 (Paul sets a standard which is almost impossible to adhere too. He does this frequently.)

    "Never accept any accusation against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses." 1 Timothy 5:19 ( We know where this has led.)

    Rebuking sinners,

    "As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest also may stand in fear." 1 Timothy 5:20 (public humiliation of sinners)

    "But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother who is sexually immoral or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber. Do not even eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge? God will judge those outside. 'Drive out the wicked person from among you.'" 1 Cor. 5:11-13 ("not to associate with , not to even eat with", the precedent for shunning.)

    Putting widows on an assistance list,

    "Let a widow be put on the list if she is not less than sixty years old and has been married only once; she must be well attested for her good works, as one who has brought up children, shown hospitality, washed the saints' feet, helped the afflicted, and devoted herself to doing good in very way." 1 Timothy 5:9,10 (this certainly sets the precedent for qualifing individuals in the congregation by works and not merely by love)

    I do not have the time to go further with this, I have left out the ones we all know: headship, head covering, women's style of dress etc., and of course Paul was not the only one to suffer from rule making. The Apostle John had his share also.

    Paul said this to Timothy in chapter 6 of 1 Timothy, verse 2b: "Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Chirst and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words."

    Paul wrote this immediately after discussing the widow's list requirements, the two witness rule and other elder details and the instructions to slaves. Certainly all who heard his letter read took it to mean that what he was teaching just prior to these words was more than mere suggestions. No, it was akin to godliness to obey and conceit and "understanding nothing" not to obey, why? because what he wrote was firmly rooted in the "sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness."

    There are many other scriptures in the NT that can be used to prove that Paul had the authority to dispense spiritual food to the disciples in Jesus name and with God's spirit, an authority which I believe the NT teaches to be irrevocable.

    One last word:

    The U.S. Constitution is a document of law and government, it is revered and the rightful application of its laws are determined by the court system in place at the time. It is never divided piecemeal with some Supreme Court Justices arbitrarily and publicly declaring parts of it to be wrong, unfounded or worse fraudulent and other parts valuable and to be kept. To do that is to invite anarchy. Either the whole Constitution is respected, and any changes made according to the law of the Constitution itself, or it falls on its face and the country will or may fall with it.

    In my opinion, it is the same with the NT. Either it stands as a whole or falls, because to declare some parts more reliable or inspired or usefull than others is to invite religious anarchy.

    Some exJWs find comfort in small Bible study groups etc. where they are free to interpret the scriptures as they like and also to give more weight to the Gospels, if they so wish, than to the letters of Paul etc. Some have come to a conclusion that God is an unknowable entity, and that the Trinity may or may not be true and so on and so forth. For them comfort comes from freedom of individual thought, wherever that thought may lead them. Others however, find comfort in organized religion. They need or want something solid, something which gives them a more concrete foundation for their lives and their faith rather than accepting some variation of an unknowable in exchange for personal religious freedom.

    I think both are fine, the small group that goes its own way or the larger group, the religon, that goes the way it too wants, the way of following older men. Both are fine because neither has all truth nor all untruth, they simple satisfy a need. I believe the JWs will reform and in so doing will continue to satisfy the needs of those among them who wish to worship God within the framework of the NT and the Watchtower theology.

    Sorry for the long post. I know I have not addressed every point you mentioned and have gone off on my own tangents. Sorry about that.

    ****************************************************************************

    Gumby,

    Thank you!

    IW

  • rocketman
    rocketman

    Very few people who are df'd and then reinstated have committed wrongs such as IW mentions. Most are df'd for fornication, some for smoking, stuff like that.

    The Prodigal son was spending time with harlots. He lived a "debuached" life. And yet, there was a celebration when he came back - an immediate one.

    One would think that, in the very least, the elders would consider circumstances rather than simply looking for a blanket 'no-no' for a small party. The guest list appeard to be about 35 from what Minimus mentioned. The congregation need not "sanction" such a party; discretion could be used in issuing invitations, etc.

    I could see hesitation if what the reinstated one did was extremeley harmful or controversial, but most df'd ones have not done something outrageous that harms a lot of people.

    And besides, the whole process of waiting for reinstatement and proving oneself repentant should count for something. The person supposedly has proven their "worth" of being accepted again.

    Blondie's post shows that, indeed, the WTS are anti-party, anti- (somewhat large) social gathering in even very favorable circumstances, like baptism. So their stance here should come as no surprise.

  • JT
    JT
    There reason............" Why clap for someone who is doing what their SUPPOSED to be doing anyway. Why rejoice for someone who erred and is coming back....they should have never erred in the first place".

    And the above ---IS THE POINT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!ACCORDING TO WT

    graduation parties "honor" the person by name, do they not? everyone comes and gives presents to the graduate....i dont see the difference?

    THE POSTERS SAYS that they don’t see any difference and they are right, but it is the WT WHO DETERMINES what is right and wrong

    and jw wait with baited breathe each year for new releases, new light that will tell them what the differences are

    Other Side of the Coin:
    What about the victims, especially those who find themselves still in the same congregation as the one who is reinstated?
    If a sister's JW husband committed adultery with another JW then after being found out coldly left his wife and children, and married the sister with whom he committed adultery, should there be a "reinstatement party" for him?
    If a JW date rapes a young sister should there be a "reinstatement party" for him?
    If a JW physically mistreated their children or parents should there be a "reinstatement party" for them?
    Of course there are victimless disfellowshippings but I believe the above circumstances make clear the impropriety of sanctioning "reinstatement parties".

    The post below sums it up nicely===

    Besides, as far as I can tell, the rule applies to all cases, not just cases where there was a victim. There's no room for even the elders--let alone the actual people involved--to use their judgment and discretion based on the facts of the case.

    The above is the bottom line- most high control groups DON’T WANT ITS MEMBERS TO HAVE TO MAKE JUDGEMENT CALLS instead they have to be told how to wipe their A$$ and the above examples of rape, adultery are perfect examples

    Someone is dfed for smoking, they stop and they are reinstated, a party is held since the person quit smoking and got reinstated

    A man leaves his wife of 30yrs and 7 kids, to marry a PYT and stays in the same hall

    The mere fact that elders and jw in general could not reason that this may not be a good issue to have a reinstatement party merely shows how jw are not capable of reasoning and making judgment calls, instead like the elders in the example- THEY CALLED MOMMA TO SEE ----------------CAN WE DO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You would think that a group of people like jw who are suppose to have their Peceptive Powers trained to disguish right from wrong, could reason that a man who left his wife and a 15yr who got caught smoking behind the school are not the same

    But jw don’t have the RIGHT to exercise that side of their brain

    How sad

  • undercover
    undercover
    The guest list appeard to be about 35 from what Minimus mentioned. The congregation need not "sanction" such a party; discretion could be used in issuing invitations, etc.

    Hell, in some congregations, 35 people would just be family and close friends. That wouldn't even need invitations. Just a few phone calls.

    I understood why the hall wasn't supposed to be used as a post office. Some friends invited to parties, while others not invited see the invitations floating around. Of course we should all be adult enough to realize that we can't get invited to every party or gathering, but somebody, somewhere always got upset. Our parties were "private" affairs. Invitation by phone or in person and never discussed(at least loudly) at the hall.

    If someone decides to have a party for a reinstated person, they should just invite who they want by phone, mail, etc, keep quiet about it and not seek sanction from anyone.

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Rocketman,

    Very few people who are df'd and then reinstated have committed wrongs such as IW mentions. Most are df'd for fornication, some for smoking, stuff like that.

    We each can only speak from our own experiences. I have lived in more than a few states in the U.S. and have associated with a large number of congregations. Most of the disfellowshippings in those congregations were by no means victimless, if fact, fornication between two single people was more likely to receive a public reproof than a disfellowshipping. That has just been my experience with the congregations and elders I am familiar with, your experience was different and I certainly respect that.

    IW

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    IslandWoman... I don't know about other Christians. Personally, I don't presume to try to tell anyone how they should worship God. That sort of arrogance is one of the things I didn't like about the Dubs.

    As far as 'religious anarchy'... who says that's a bad thing? Each individual chooses for themselves what to believe; we will all stand before God for judgment. It does not appear to be God's purpose at this time to have all Christians united in the exact same doctrinal beliefs.

    As far as Paul and his attitude towards legalism... IMHO, that's getting too far off-topic for this thread. If you're serious about wanting to discuss, feel free to post your points in another thread, and I'll reply.

  • ninecharger
    ninecharger

    A practising JW is free to express an opinion, but only that approved by the WT.

    "If I want your opinion then I'll give it you."

    Euphemism, really!

  • sandy
    sandy
    Luke 15 21 Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Make me as one of your hired men.’ 22 But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quick! bring out a robe, the best one, and clothe him with it, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened young bull, slaughter it and let us eat and enjoy ourselves, 24 because this my son was dead and came to life again; he was lost and was found.’ And they started to enjoy themselves.

    Based on these verses alone I think the Society can and should make it policy for the flock to spend money out of the congregation's budget to finance the reinstatement party.

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    ninecharger... I would fully respect IslandWoman's opinion if she were a Christian, and had a definite opinion about what Christianity should be.

    What disturbs me is that she is not a Christian, but presumes to state, flat-out, that a person is not a true Christian if they don't accept the entire NT. To me, that's as if a Republican tried to tell me that I'm not really a liberal because I don't agree entirely with the platform of the Democratic party.

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Euphemism,

    IslandWoman... I don't know about other Christians. Personally, I don't presume to try to tell anyone how they should worship God. That sort of arrogance is one of the things I didn't like about the Dubs.

    Missionary work is something many Christians from a variety of denominations participate in or financially support. I was by no means suggesting that you yourself attempt to convert others.

    It does not appear to be God's purpose at this time to have all Christians united in the exact same doctrinal beliefs.

    My point exactly.

    As far as Paul and his attitude towards legalism... IMHO, that's getting too far off-topic for this thread. If you're serious about wanting to discuss, feel free to post your points in another thread, and I'll reply.

    I was merely attempting to address the points you made in a previous post. I have already said what I wanted to say, therefore no need to drag out this sorry business. The subject is a difficult one not because of lack of evidence but because I too once believed and I remember the love I had for Jesus and Paul. In principle I still do love them but not because of who they claimed to be but for the many beautiful things the NT claims they taught. This is a hard subject for me, one which I truly get no pleasure from.

    I hope you are happy here.

    Take care,

    IW

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