JGnat's comments on WT May 15, 2003 Christ Speaks to the Congregations

by jgnat 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    WT May 15, 2003 Christ Speaks to the Congregations study June 29, 2003

    Here we study about the seven stars talked about in Revelation 2, whom the article states “logically denote spirit-anointed overseers, or bodies of elders .”* In Revelation 2, the seven congregations are alternatively complimented for their strength, and slammed for their areas of weakness.

    In the Isaiah study book we are studying now, Israel is repeatedly slammed as being unrepentant and irretrievably wicked. JW’s are instructed that Jehovah therefore gave up on His people completely, and have been replaced by the “Israel of God”, the WTS around 1914 or so. It irks me that the WTS emphasizes the final judgement, when the book of Isaiah is also full of redemption. By harshly pointing the Judgement Finger to everybody else, the WTS is in turn setting themselves up for harsh judgement. By identifying with the seven congregations, does that not make the WTS as culpable as ancient Israel?

    Perhaps the OT is a long history of the weakness of man, doing his best to meet the demands of his creator, and repeatedly failing in his efforts, as generation after generation forgets what has gone before. Perhaps the NT is a symphony of forgiveness, that God gathers us in, seventy times seven times, regardless of our failings. Perhaps God has forgiven ancient/modern Israel yet again, since that nation has again blossomed in the desert in modern times. In turn, if Israel has been forgiven, perhaps the rest of humanity/Christendom falls within God’s favour as well.

    Here are my study questions this week:

    • By identifying with the seven congregations, does that not make the WTS as wicked as Israel, and if so, equally condemned? p. 2
    • If the WTS is in complete unity in all matters, how could it also be seven unique congregations with unique failings? p. 3
    • Could it be that the absolute uniformity required of the WTS congregations today does not follow the loose brotherhood of the early church and therefore is unscriptural in organization? p. 3
    • What are the names and addresses of the current

    spirit-anointed overseers ? After all, the original Seven are named specifically in Revelation. p. 3

  • Do only True Followers of Jesus turn in their brothers with “apostate” leanings? p. 6
  • Are members of the cong. who extend the hand of fellowship to unrepentant apostates False Followers? p. 6
  • Paul mentioned he was in danger of false brothers in 2 Corinthians 11:26. Do you think the modern-day brother is in danger of stoning from his “false“ brother? If not, what danger is he to fear? p. 6
  • Can a True Brother turn in to a False Brother by knowingly associating with another False Brother? p. 6
  • With enough disfellowshippings, could the WTS pare itself down to the pure anointed only, and therefore save themselves the embarrassment of having their lampstand extinguished? p. 8
  • If the loyal “other sheep” blindly follow an organization of men, admittedly prone to human failing, but claiming status as anointed of god, are the “other sheep” guilty of “following men “? Matthew 23:10 p. 9
  • If an apostate uses gentle, reasoned persuasion, rather than wicked persuasion , is it acceptable to hear him out? p. 24

    • * By the way, this statement is only logical if all the WT is correct in their claim that there is only one organization today blessed by Jehovah. I personally think Jehovah is not threatened by variety, and it makes much more sense to see the seven stars as seven separate congregations, with unique characteristics and strengths.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Jgnat --

    You said it well -- by pointing the finger of perdition at anyone and everyone else, the WT only exposes itself to well-deserved criticism.

    Your questions probably reveal a lot more insight than the article itself does.

    I loved this question:

    If an apostate uses gentle, reasoned persuasion, rather than wicked persuasion , is it acceptable to hear him out?

    Of course, we all know that the WTS only uses "gentle, reasoned persuasion", right? To get people to follow their doctrinal maze, they have to lull them into a sleeplike state, and then convince those followers to "trust them". Who are they to demand reasoned persuasion from others, these masters of confusion at the Watchtower headquarters?

    I guess anyone who doesn't follow them like a lapdog can only be branded as "wicked".

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    ..."the seven stars talked about in Revelation 2, whom the article states “logically denote spirit-anointed overseers, or bodies of elders .”*"....

    rather stranga analogy that one. It doesnt really seem to fit does it? As you said...how can a united body be discussed as seperated into seven entities. Note it refers to "Bodies of Elders" as distinct from the 144K. I wonder what THAT means. Like i said...., Bizzare

  • avengers
    avengers

    Good going there!!
    I like these kind of threads. Not to bash the WT, but to expose them with their own words, so that it has to be clear to every reasoning person how the WT is in reality.

    Let's take this for instance. ......unrepentant apostates

    I am considered an unrepented apostate. But why? Was it I that turned against God? I did nothing that would consider me an apostate.
    What I did was question issues!! . Take the issue with the UN. Was it I that had association with the Wild Beast? NO!!
    It was the "leaders of the pack".
    They never denied having an affair. They even condoned the relation and never condemned it or never repented. See, these so-called "unrepentant apostates" are called this so, that the "flock" gets scared right away: "Oh my God, apostates. Shut your ears! Don't listen to them".

    If an apostate uses gentle, reasoned persuasion, rather than wicked persuasion , is it acceptable to hear him out? p. 24

    This way the "flock" never gets the full story. They get only the story the GB wants them to hear. This is against all Bible principle.

    Proverbs 18 13 He who answers before listening-
    that is his folly and his shame.

    So folly and shame on the "flock". But this way the GB gets their way. And the "faithful" "slave" rules. In the dark the "flock" is kept.

    If I even try to bring up the subject about; take for instance the Regi affair or the UN affair or the fact that they were fined for pollution, or the pedophile schandal, then instantly I'm being shut up with words like: "Do not talk about this. Leave the house. No more socialising with you. You are bad company", etc,etc. I think you get the picture.

    This is spin-doctoring at the highest level. These guys are smart. But are they honest? Take the saying: "is it acceptable to hear him out?"

    reminds me of this picture:

    There's a lot more spin-doctoring going on, maybe later on I'll be back.

    So unrepentant apostates ??. Who are the unrepentant apostates ?? RIP

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    It's true: for all of the hoopla about God's always having had an organization, Witnesses sure neglect the regularity with which God abandoned those organizations.

    Dedalus

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    The seven stars in the god's hand is from mythology as well. The Greek world knew 7 planets and placed them as minor gods in Zeus's hand. Artwork survives depicting this scene. The writers using this motif to promote his brand of gnostic christianity is very characteristic of the book.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Gopher , in turn I like this, “Who are they to demand reasoned persuasion from others, these masters of confusion at the Watchtower headquarters?” Yes, the WT may us language masterfully, but not clearly. Plain language is discarded in favour of “ten dollar” words like obfuscate. This does them the double duty of obscuring their intent and making them sound wiser than they are.

    This is the full sentence on wicked persuasion:

    “Since false teachers or individuals leaning towards apostacy can corrupt an entire congregation, we must maintain a firm stand against such apostacy, never allowing wicked persuasion to hinder us from obeying the truth.”

    Refiner’s Fire

    , the WT “take” on the seven stars always bothered me. I agree, their interpretation is bizarre. Just goes to show the kinds of mental contortions an organization has to go in to when they insist they are always right. The seven stars is one of the first issues I asked my honey to bring up with his study leader. My honey was satisfied with the answer, probably because he was relieved that his study leader had a confident reply. How many JW’s confuse confident with reasonable? Bizarre! A beautiful ten dollar word!

    Avengers

    , I am putting Proverbs 18:13 on my lifetime list of scriptures to remember. Thanks! I love your question, who are unrepentant apostates? It begs more questions. What does a repentant apostate look like? AGuest? Is a repentant apostate still an apostate? If True Brother takes the leap off the apostacy cliff, can he really climb back up in to Jehovah’s favour, and become a repentant apostate? Is questioning the leadership apostacy? Was Nathan an apostate when he questioned David about his adulterous affair and murder? Should David have listened to Nathan?

    dedalus

    - I have a theory that JW’s secretly fear that rejection. It must be hard for a JW to be condemning the “wicked world” all the time, while loudly declaring his own perfection. Especially when in his heart of hearts he suspects his lifestyle is equally fragile. Where can a JW turn if his kid gets in to serious problems, like drugs? To go to the elders is to have his child expelled from all supports. To go to the world is to admit abject failure.
  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Peacefulpete, thank you for that tidbit. It led me to a whole new appreciation for that imagery. Indeed, it is very old. A first century Christian could look in to the sky at night and count the seven stars of Ursa Major . A cool link:

    http://www.midlandspubs.co.uk/pubsigns/s.htm

    ...and by the way, I really liked your reply to POOH. I do hope she comes back and takes a look at our comments.

  • benext
    benext

    The WT has always had a fascination with numbers and dates. 7 being a complete number heavenly perfection, while 10 was complete in an earthly sense. It seems incredible that the statement that someone with apostate leanings could corrupt the entire congregation could be made. Panic mode has set in.

  • Winston Smith :>D
    Winston Smith :>D

    jgnat,

    Yes, those are very good Q's!

    I sat through the WT study also on Sunday. Here's how our meeting was wrapped up. Disgusting!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    As I get settled in, I see that they are starting to consider paragraph #6. The paragraph is another example of sifting the facts by the WTS. There is a sentence half way through that says, paraphrased, that we most oppose apostates.

    The WTS then cites 2 Cor 11:12-15, 26.

    The question is now asked for the paragraph. Let the “Two-minutes Hate” begin.

    Well everyone falls in line. The word “hate” is freely thrown around. We must oppose apostates and hate what is bad. No one notices that 2 Cor was taken completely out of context. While yes, it says this:

    ”13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. “

    in the same chapter Paul also admonished the Corinthians to do this:

    *** Rbi8 2 Corinthians 11:19-20 *** 19 For YOU gladly put up with the unreasonable persons, seeing YOU are reasonable. 20 In fact, YOU put up with whoever enslaves YOU , whoever devours [what YOU have], whoever grabs [what YOU have], whoever exalts himself over [ YOU ], whoever strikes YOU in the face.

    Humm, is appears that we are supposed to endure and put up with such men. Even in vs. 26 Paul is citing all of the things that he has endured, including as vs. 26 says, “

    *** Rbi8 2 Corinthians 11:26 *** in journeys often, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from highwaymen, in dangers from [my own] race, in dangers from the nations, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers among FALSE BROTHERS,

    But of course none of this is noticed by the R&F. I am amazed at how people can be using the Bible and yet be so blind. I am saddened that I was once like this too. No wonder why I felt miserable so many times in my life.

    The hate continues in the same paragraph. An elder comments on *** Rbi8 2 John 10 ***
    10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him.

    “So we see, we must oppose such ones and remove them from the congregation to protect the flock,”

    And actually, the scripture says “home” not congregation. Again, no one notices.

    Now the highlight is the end of the WatchTower. The congregation is being led by the WT conductor through the review questions. And the final question I believe asks, to paraphrase, “How are we to view apostates?”

    Well this is so easy our conductor now does a little game that I am sure others have seen done at their congregation also. He asks for all the children to answer at once.

    And the answer is? Well, the answer that the young children are to repeat is, “HATE”.

    “hate” , the young mouths murmur.

    The conductor doesn’t care for the level of the response he receives the first time around. So he asks the question again. Parents are starting to coach their children to say the desired answer, “Hate”.

    “Hate”, the little ones say with growing confidence.

    The response is better, but still, it’s just not good enough.

    “I know you can do better than that!”

    And now, in one resounding, unified accord we get the real message of the WTS from the mouth of babes:

    “HATE!”

    My heart sank.

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