Best definition of the Bible I've ever seen...

by logansrun 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    This was emailed to me from a friend...

    The Old Testament is a compilation of convenient myth and a history of racial justification and aggrandisement, threaded through with rules of hygiene and behaviour, all devised to convince the Children of Israel that as God's chosen race, no matter what calamities befell them as victims of Babylon and Egypt and no matter what calamities they wantonly inflicted on other races and religions, they should strive to increase in number, power and extent.

    The New Testament, as expressed in the four Gospels, is a dispensation from the narrow and proscriptive uncharity of the Jews, appealing to the Greek and Latin temperament. And the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of St Paul, that sanctimonious master of self-adulation, record his efforts, physical and intellectual, to reverse the generosity of Christ's Christianity and wrestle the hopeful new religion back into the stifling folds of Jewish law and custom.

  • worldlygirl
  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    I'm not saying it ain't partially true, but it smacks of anti-Semitism, especially because Paul's idea was to free it further from Judaism in all those narrow senses mentioned under the OT heading. It's clever, but wrong, imho.

    Gamaliel

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Gamaliel,

    I don't really see Paul as being the "I'm going to rescue people from the Mosaic Law" figure that he would like to have thought. Paul was a strange dude, imho, and held many contradictory views. He seems to have outwardly preached that "Christ is the end of the Law" yet STILL carried on Jewish practice, circumcised Timothy and created a lot of rules that Jesus never came close to. I think he wanted to both seperate the Jesus movement from Judaism and, yet, keep core elements of it in tact. He seemed to have a love/hate relationship with Judaism that seeps into his rules and teachings. But what do I know. I'm not a "scholar." hehe

    Bradley

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    I especially like the nt definition. Jesus advocated and practiced casting aside the rules. Paul brought in a whole bunch of new rules. Perhaps a bit of exageration to illustrate the point. Jesus the liberal/communist, paul the republican/fascist.

    SS

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Barely a year ago I would've taken great issue with those descriptions of the Bible. I still believe there are parts, or shall we say, "essences of thought," in the Bible that reflect a spiritual "connection" (call it inspiration, if you like). But I've since some to see that the Bible is predominantly nothing more than a collection of mundane social and religious history, with a specific, and not always very well hidden, agenda.

    As for the Pauline "problem": interesting, very interesting. I'm strongly inclined to compare Paul with Rutherford. This is off the topic line, and I don't want to hijack but Bradley, Gamaliel and SaintSatan, perhaps you'd like to run with this subject for a little bit?

    If so, perhaps I could offer, for starters, that as a born-and-bred Pharisee, Paul could hardly help from being authoritarian and rule-oriented in his thinking, and therefore, in his teachings...his "conversion" notwithstanding.

    Craig

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Ona

    I still believe there are parts, or shall we say, "essences of thought," in the Bible that reflect a spiritual "connection"

    I agree. But then other socalled holy books have some also.

    If so, perhaps I could offer, for starters, that as a born-and-bred Pharisee, Paul could hardly help from being authoritarian and rule-oriented in his thinking, and therefore, in his teachings...his "conversion" notwithstanding.

    There ya go. Practically all churches use pauls rules as rules of order, since jesus never gave any. Imagine if all christians suddenly dropped all of pauls church directives, and took their leadings totally from jesus? Why, churches would practically disintegrate. Christians of this style could probably even be buddhists at the same time.

    SS

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    At the risk of going off topic, one could further attack paul's contribution by posing the question, who appointed him vicar to jesus? He claims to have had a vision, yet the gospels and the acts suggest that peter was to be more or less in charge, while church traditions have it that james, jesus' brother came to be the power, until he was killed [by pharisees, i believe. Hmm, wasn't paul a pharisee? Ooops, getting into conspiracies here.].

    SS

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    SS:

    I agree. But then other socalled holy books have some also.

    As well as a lot of what are simply called self-help books, or even a book like The Quotable Spirit (a collection of religious and spiritual quotations from the last 4,000 years). One quote is from Thomas Paine:

    Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system.

    This has that "ring," the simplicity of intuition that has so often evaded me! Now, when I read or hear something like this, I can say "Yes! Of course!!!"

    As far as the "rules of Paul," another thing that strikes me is that the groups of Christians that formed after Jesus' death obviously managed to do just fine for at least 2 decades, acting autonomously and without any canonical "code." But then a power struggle develops between the Antioch and Jerusalem groups, with the remaining numbers of the 12 apostles concentrated in Jerusalem, and on the other side Paul in Antioch (this is a very rough sketch). So, now we not only have a power struggle, but a power struggle with a power-management expert on one side, and a bunch of fishermen on the other. In some ways this might be mere speculation, but it certainly gives me pause for thought.

    Craig (of the not-waiting-politely-for-Bradley's-permission-class LOL )

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Bradley,

    I don't really see Paul as being the "I'm going to rescue people from the Mosaic Law" figure that he would like to have thought. Paul was a strange dude, imho, and held many contradictory views.

    You are right, I'm sure. I was just looking at this from a slightly different perspective, and I didn't mean to take the fun away from it. It's very clever and funny; it's just that it also struck me that the definitions tended to emphasize a hackneyed criticism. I'll explain myself, at the risk of ruining all the fun.

    He seems to have outwardly preached that "Christ is the end of the Law" yet STILL carried on Jewish practice, circumcised Timothy and created a lot of rules that Jesus never came close to. I think he wanted to both seperate the Jesus movement from Judaism and, yet, keep core elements of it in tact. He seemed to have a love/hate relationship with Judaism that seeps into his rules and teachings.

    Everything you said here is right, imo, but my comments are directed at the original post. "Anti-Semitic" was too strong a choice of words. I just meant that there is a tendency to dismiss the Jewish religion as completely negative and stifling but because I felt it was based on misunderstood evidence -- it therefore reflects a prejudice.

    no matter what calamities befell them as victims of Babylon and Egypt and no matter what calamities they wantonly inflicted on other races and religions, they should strive to increase in number, power and extent.

    I think the author, by moving out of the past tense might be displaying that that he or she is rightfully angry that the continued influence of the Bible on the Jews is that it still justifies calamities that they still wontonly inflict on other races and religions, especially in modern-day Palestine. There may be a hint that goes beyond righteous anger reflected in "that...they should strive to increase in number, power and extent." It's a common complaint in true 20th century anti-Semitic rhetoric that it's an awful religion, but it's doubly awful that Jews increase in power everywhere they go. That possible strata of thought was not necessarily the theme up to this point, but the fact that it was tied strongly into the next section made me wonder:

    ...the narrow and proscriptive uncharity of the Jews...to reverse the generosity of Christ's Christianity ... into the stifling folds of Jewish law and custom.

    The more common 19th century anti-Semitic rhetoric was typically about "uncharity and stinginess," a little different than 20th century complaints about Jewish "number, power and extent." Almost those exact words were still reflected in the Oxford English Dictionary and even in Judge Rutherford's rhetoric concerning Jews well into the twentieth century.

    I thought it was a bit prejudicial sounding because it seemed based on an accusation that Paul's goal was to wrestle Christianity back from hopeful charity to stifling uncharity. It's true that Paul's created a religion with some of these elements, and that could at least partially be "blamed" on his own Jewish background, but that is not what he wrestled with. His WRESTLING was to make it less Jewish, less burdensome. His fight in Acts 15 was with a "governing body" that wanted Paul's Gentile converts to get circumcised, to avoid not just obvious illegalities and immoralities but also Jewish proscriptions against blood and things sacrificed to idols. Paul successfully fought them on circumcision, but couldn't get it through the GB's head that no other burden should be added to them. Paul, on his own, very clearly told the Corinthians to ignore the GB burden about "things sacrificed to idols", that it was only weak Christians who wanted to follow such things. Paul cursed (damned) that GB attitude in Galatians 1 and 2, and explained how the fruits of true religion were automatic and didn't require law at all in chapters 4 and 5. Even his vow and the circumcision of Timothy wasn't done because he wanted it, but because he knew the GB would let him get killed by Jewish and/or Jewish/Christian zealots if he didn't appease their spiritual "weakness" with these external signs.

    Because the writer obviously missed the point about Paul's wrestling, it spoiled the theme for me, and told me that it was at least partially based on prejudices, or at the very least was just being funny but with a measure of insensitivity.

    Gamaliel

    (Formatting issues, hope this font isn't too big.)

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