just bookmarking for later
A little history on the Bible
by gumby 55 Replies latest watchtower bible
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hooberus
Gumby, time allowing I may discuss some of the points from the site you pasted from:
Originally, the four New Testament gospels known today as Matthew, Mark,
Luke, and John were anonymous documents--probably all written in Greek
(as opposed to Hebrew or Aramaic). Their authorship was assigned according
to tradition. Justin Martyr (150 C.E.) for example, was familiar with the
gospels, but never mentions them by name--or how many of them there were.
The first recorded instance of four gospels was made by Iraneous (Bishop of
Lyons around 150 C.E.). He argued that there had to be four gospels because
there were four winds. Likewise, he referred to the gospels by their modern
revered names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.Though Irenaeus may have been the first to argue for the formal doctrine of four gospels (I haven't checked this point either way), there were others before Irenaeus who refered to the gospels as well as the other epistles. Thus they were in circulation early, and as I have already pointed out, the earlist manuscripts as well as citations from early fathers are essentually the same as later manuscripts so the claim that the gospels did not take on their complete form until A.D. 150 is unsubstiantiated.
Testimony of Early Fathers:
Clement of Rome (A.D. 95) quoted from: Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 1 Corinthians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44
Ignatius (A.D. 70-110) quoted from: Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Collossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, James, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44
I will discuss more points later.
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hooberus
The oldest bibles that HAVE survived (which date from the FOURTH
century C.E.), were written on expensive vellum--ie animal skins which are
more durable. Both the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus bibles are
believed to date from the middle of the fourth century, when Christianity
achieved official status during the reign of Constantine, and therefore
could afford the expensive vellum.Complete cannons before the printing press are rare. However manuscripts exist such as P45, P46, P66, etc from the late second century and early third century which contain many books of the new testament. These manuscripts are quite lengthy for their age (containing sometimes almost complete books) and are in essential agreement with later manuscripts.
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hooberus
The following is a scholarly discussion of the formation of the New Testament Cannon. It deals with the books currently in the New Teatament as well as the reasons why other books were rejected.
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Dansk
Hooberus
The following is a scholarly discussion of the formation of the New Testament Cannon.
The site you recommend is a typical Biblical apologist's site. It's hardly going to be unbiased with a title like 'Tekton - Building Blocks for the Christian Faith'. Please direct us to a non-apologist site that will back up your view that the New Testament Canon was inspired by God and that the books therein were written by the named "authors".
Dansk
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gumby
Aquote from the site you supplied hooberus,
What factors decided the formation of the NT canon? Far from being an arbitrary process, the formation of the canon was the result of carefully-weighed choices over time by concerned church officials and members. Later votes on the canon were merely the most definitive steps taken at the end of a long and careful, sometimes difficult, process.
Any idea who these might be?
We would have to assume that if it is the word of god......then god somehow influenced these men to pick the right ones. As I stateted before........many books were discarded as canon that were once canon....and later ones that were rejected were added. Does it sound like men did this or God?
The site also said that for a book to be considered for the Canon, it had to have the authorship of an Apostle, close family member, or someone very close to either. I suppose if it could be proved that some of the bible books were written long after these ones had died.......then that theory would be shot down.............am I correct?
BTW.....thanks for supplying the site......I'd like to read a bit more of it.
Gumby
Gumby
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noko
Some of the non canical works can be found in "The Lost Books of the Bible and the forgotten books of Eden" ISBN 0-529-02061-0 which is about the same size as a Bible. Contains the following and more:
- The Gospel of the Birth of Mary
- The Protevangelion or An Historical Account of the Birth of Christ, and . . .
- The first Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ
- Thomas Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ
- The Epistles of Jesus Christ and Abgarus King of Edessa
- The Gospel of Nicodemus, formely called the Acts of Pontius Pilate
- The Apostles Creed
- The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Laodiceans
- The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Seneca, with Seneca's to Paul
- The Acts of Paul and Thecla
- The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
- II Clement
- The General Epistle of Barnabas
- The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
- The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians
- The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
- The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans
- The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians
- The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
- The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp
- The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
- The Shepherd of Hermas
- 2nd book of Hermas
- 3rd book of Hermas, which is also called his Similitudes
- Letters of Herod and Pilate
- Letter of Herod to Pilate the Governor
- Letter of Pilate to Herod
- The Epistle of Pontius Pilate
- The Report of Pilate the Governor
- The Report of Pontius Pilate
- The Trial and condemnation of Pilate
- The Death of Pilate
- The Lost Gospel According to Peter
- Forgotten Books of Eden
Some of the works are pure and obvious fiction while others show what was being thought of at the time in the Church. Some are obvious National Inquier type literature (if you want to call National Inquier literature ). Others are actually very good such as Clement 1 and 2, Hermas is also interesting. While some of the other writtings are an instant cure for insomia.
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hooberus
Dansk said:
The site you recommend is a typical Biblical apologist's site. It's hardly going to be unbiased with a title like 'Tekton - Building Blocks for the Christian Faith'. Please direct us to a non-apologist site that will back up your view that the New Testament Canon was inspired by God and that the books therein were written by the named "authors".
Of course it is a biased site. So is the jesusneverexisted.com site which was pasted from for this thread. Just because a site takes a particular position does not necessarily invalidate the points made by the site, provided the site presents its data carefully, truthfully, and accurately.
furthermore, many of the points that I have made here come from appeals to manuscript evidence and other evidence from antiquity.
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hooberus
gumby said:
We would have to assume that if it is the word of god......then god somehow influenced these men to pick the right ones. As I stateted before........many books were discarded as canon that were once canon
I believe this to be an inaccurate statement. The rejected books though viewed as scripture by some were never fully accepted as scripture by the church. Thus they were never part of the official cannon.
and later ones that were rejected were added. Does it sound like men did this or God?
The books that were initially disputed and later fully accepted were never "rejected" by the church per se, but only by certain individuals. Implying that a certain book (such as Jude) was "rejected" and then "added" by the Church is very inaccurate.
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drwtsn32
So there you have it! Since people "died' for Jesus........then he must have been real.
lol.... what a great line of reasoning! You know, people have died by not accepting a blood transfusion. That must mean the WTS is the true religion!