I'm a person that believes in the Trinity, but I have a question. I know Jesus didn't reveal to all the people to whom he preached as God himself, and it was not something that he directly taught (or at least I think he didn't), but I know from what I've read that the disciples knew and taught it. My question is, did Jesus tell them, or did they have this revealed when they were anointed by the Holy Spirit? Only trinitarians answer, I don't want to start a debate here on wether the Trinity is true or false.
Trinitarians, Did Jesus reveal himself as God?
by ClassAvenger 13 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Myxomatosis
Hey Class Avenger,
<<I'm a person that believes in the Trinity, but I have a question. I know Jesus didn't reveal to all the people to whom he preached as God himself, and it was not something that he directly taught (or at least I think he didn't), but I know from what I've read that the disciples knew and taught it. My question is, did Jesus tell them, or did they have this revealed when they were anointed by the Holy Spirit? Only trinitarians answer, I don't want to start a debate here on wether the Trinity is true or false.>>
Myx: Wooof, this is a tough one. I like the way C.S puts it, "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him [Jesus]: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. he would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
It's true, if a man were to say what Jesus said about Himself, and He were not G-d, then you would have to be a madman, liar, demon, and a fool, for He died believing it. THAT is why Paul says If it were NOT for the RESURRECTION, Our faith be in vain. That sort of substantiated His claims completely, if it had not happened, the miracles He performed could likely have been easier to explain away. Ok, then, He was and is something more than just human.
One thing that may be helpful is to go through the Bible, look at the times that the Jews got 'ready to stone him', now, there are many reasons for capital punishment in old Jewish law, but only FIVE for the cruel method of stoning. The only one Jesus would have been breaking was the sin of BLASPHEMY, for He "called Himself the Son of G-d, making Himself EQUAL with G-d"
Jesus taught it.
John 8 56-58
Jesus speaking "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."
What we have here is the most explicit claim I believe in the New Testament of Jesus concerning His deity. He says "before Abraham was born, I AM!" which the Jews, as you can see, understood perfectly, He was 'blaspheming' in their minds, they made ready to stone Him. Now, the importance of this cannot be overestimated, for it is the Greek words "Ego Eimi" which is the Hebrew "Ani Hu". In the Old Testament, there are surrogates for the divine Name YHWH, and "Ani Hu" I believe is used consistently as meaning, being, YHWH. So, at this point, Jesus was claiming to be the "I AM" the ever existent, the YHWH of the OT. He also said He was there with Abraham, which reading back it had to be the Pre-existent Christ speaking to Abraham in many instances in the Old Testament.
Heard of a 'doubting Thomas'?
After the resurrection, Jesus appears to Thomas. Thomas doubted that the other disciples had seen the Lord.
John 20:26
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
"Thomas said to him, "My Lord and MY G-D!"
"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Thomas said "My Lord and MY G-D"....if Jesus WERE NOT, He would have to be again, evil NOT TO REBUKE THOMAS. Jesus does not. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Thomas calling Him G-d when He appears after the resurrection....Would He do you think IF He really LOVED the Father, and HONOURED the Father as He claimed, if it were not true?
Another thing that really cannot be overestimated, is that He forgave sins (which by nature are all against G-d) which the Jews knew was something only G-d could do. He behaved as if He were the chief party involved, which would be absurd, almost comical if He were not truly G-d in nature. Now, if I stepped on your toes, it would be logical for you to forgive me, since you were the person affected. What Jesus did, is behaved as if by my stepping on your toes, I had done HIM wrong, not only you, but He as well. You see how that would be silly if it were not also against Him?
Matthew 9:1
"Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. Some men brought to him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"
"Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier to say, ' Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?"
Jesus thinks it is evil to think that He is blaspheming when He forgives sins apparently. soooo....
I hope this has been a bit helpful, Jesus did indeed claim deity for Himself, by His words, by His actions, and proven by His resurrection (He said He would 'raise the temple' if they were to destroy it 'in three days'...later, His disciples realised He was speaking of His BODY, which it says ' G-d raised from the dead'). I have just recently realized the things He says about Himself in relation to the Father, If He were not equal, and co-existent, would only pile on the case for His nuttery.
Also, it is by the Holy Spirit that you are CONVINCED OF JESUS' WORDS, and of Scripture. So yes, I do believe the Disciples by the indwelling, were Convinced by the Spirit that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of the Father. :)
I know this is not what Jesus said about Himself, but it is utterly incredible I think.
Hebrews 1:8
If you haven't, I would highly recommend reading all of Hebrews, but just to keep it brief...
Whoever wrote this is quoting Pslam 45, This would be the Father, through the Holy Spirit, speaking of the Son (sound like tri-unity?)
"But about the Son He says,
"Your throne, O G-D, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore G-d, your G-d, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."
I don't know how much more clear it can be, the Father calls the Son 'G-d' twice in this passage.
also
Heb 1:6
"And again, when G-d brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all G-d's angels worship him."
G-d was letting his angels worship a creature? Nope, esp. not another angel. G-d does not share His glory, as said in the Bible.
Some of the writings of Ignatius are brilliant on this. Irenaeus points to the parts where it is the pre-existent Christ (recorded as YHWH) speaking to Abraham in a theophany.
Was this any help? Do you have any more questions? I've read some cool stuff, so I'd love to share my thoughts if there's anything else you're wondering about. ahhhhhh, it was soooo nice to just be able to use BIBLE verses without getting in disputes over the Greek, and petty divisions like that as I do when talking to Witnesses online.
luv
Myxomatosis -
robhic
Myx ... wrote:
John 8 56-58
Jesus speaking "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."The only part of this that has nagged at me is the part about Jesus hiding Himself and "slipping away." He is countering their accusation that He is blaspheming about being God, but instead of them putting down the stones with a "Hmmm, maybe He's right" sort of attitude, Jesus runs away which, in my opinion, leaves the issue a bit unsettled.
Your post that I exerpted this from was excellent. I appreciated he thoughts contained but what I mention above just seems to be sort of a let down if Jesus had to run intead of the Jews accepting His claim.
Did that make sense? Thanks, again for such an excellent post.
Robert
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rocketman
Though I'm not (yet, perhaps) a trinitarian, I do follow such threads with interest. But I guss technically, I'm not allowed to comment.
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Gamaliel
I'm not allowed to "answer" but I do have an idea that if the Trinity doctrine was something that the Holy Spirit revealed in time, then the writer of John certainly got it first, and emphasized it much more than the writer of Hebrews, even if whoever wrote Hebrews got it first. It seems to me that the other Gospel writers and Paul wrote before it was an issue with them.
Gamaliel
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archangel01
to Myxomatosis
Great Answer, I couldn't have typed it better. Yes I believe in Christ, Trinity, etc etc. Well Done
In Christ Archangel01
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ozziepost
G'day ClassAvenger,
May I add to your points this one:
The Jewish religious leaders certainly believed that Jesus had claimed to be God and it resulted in their hatred and finally their execution of him.
Cheers, Ozzie
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ClassAvenger
So, did the disciples find out Jesus claimed to be God from listening to his preachings?
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GotJesus
The disciples were shown Christs true diety through His actions ie: miracles, healing, his own ressurection. It was nesessary because just like in our times, mere mortals had difficulty putting faith into the intangibles.
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Myxomatosis
Hi Robert,
how you doin?
Rob: The only part of this that has nagged at me is the part about Jesus hiding Himself and "slipping away." He is countering their accusation that He is blaspheming about being God, but instead of them putting down the stones with a "Hmmm, maybe He's right" sort of attitude, Jesus runs away which, in my opinion, leaves the issue a bit unsettled.
Myx: Well, what the hell would you do if someone picked up stones to THROW AT YOUR HEAD! lol, Ok, this is a really good question, I'm not that terrific at Biblical matters, but I'll answer as best I can. Right, so, let's say I was to leave my 19 million dollar mansion (in the core of the earth) and become a bear, cos that's the only thing I can think of. Now, what if those bears knew that there was only One human who's name was Goldilocks, and that that particular human only resided in her 19 million dollar mansion, which was in the middle of the Earth, and had always existed. Goldilocks eternal mansion. These bears honored me, they knew I was very far above them, and among the bears, it would be blasphemy to ever take the great name of Goldilocks, their protector, in vain. Naturally it would be more wrong (and absurd) to claim to BE the great eternal Goldilocks. Ok, now let's say I were to shed my humanly form to come down (er..up) and teach the bears how to make porridge RIGHT. (cos bears, y'know, eat porrige and stuff)
One day after I've been working hard to pound the proper porrige instruction into their heads, I am talking about their great ancestor Yogi. I say I had known him, and say that I was there when he was. Obviously, he would have died a long time ago. Now, they ask me 'how could I have been there when He had been (cos they know only the eternal human in the 19 million dollar mansion could have been around at that time, and NOW) and I told them, 'before Yogi was,I am Goldilocks'. The bears would think that since the Human is far away in the mansion, that this was outright blasphemy on the part of the very ordinary looking bear they saw before them. And it was in their bear charter that anyone who claimed to be equal to the illustrious Goldilocks, that they must immediately drown them in the community death vat of rotting porrige. Do you think that these bears looking at this bear before them would stop to think, especially since there was only one human who lived in the mansion "hmmm, maybe she's telling the truth, maybe she IS Goldilocks"?? Since they would not understand that I truly WAS the Human(in nature and substance), just now in the form and appearance of a bear, but I did, and I knew I was not lying, I would most likely slip away before they had a chance to plunge me into the rotting porrige. And I knew that I had to fulfil my 'mission' of perfecting the recipe before I returned back to my mansion. OOOOOKAY then. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I took all the time to write that so it stays. A more biblical way to answer you would be::
You must understand that as bizarre as it was to the bears that the eternal HUMAN not BEAR who lived in the mansion would ever be 1) in their neck of the woods so to speak 2) being in the likeness of a bear as they are, *in the most bizarre segway ever:* to the Jews, Jesus saying that He was the 'I Am' the 'Ani Hu' and the YHWH of the OT, was utter blasphemy. Once again, I have to quote C.S.
(About G-d)
"..Thirdly, He (G-d) selected one particular people and spent several centuries hammering into their heads what sort of G-d He was--that there was only one of Him and that He cared about right conduct. Those people were the Jews and the Old Testament gives an account of the hammering process.
Then comes the real shock. Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was G-d. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of G-d, or one with G-d: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of G-d. **G-d, in their language, meant the Being outside the world, who made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips."
So, G-d, meaning 'being OUTSIDE the world', and the Jews seeing the very normal looking human Jesus before them, and having laws against blasphemy, I don't believe, would pause for a second to ponder..."hmmmm, what IF?" That would be very un-Jewish at that point.
Another point I could make, is about Jesus in relation to the Jews themselves. The Jews, in large part at that time, and to this day reject Jesus as the Messiah. (though many did accept Him) What must be clear about the Jews are a few words from the prophets concerning them and their acceptance of Jesus when He came:
from John 12:37
THE JEWS CONTINUE IN THEIR UNBELIEF
"Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
For this reason they could not believe, because Isaiah says elsewhere:
"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn--and I would heal them."
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him"
What we have here then is perhaps the more Biblical explanation of why the Jews did not stop and think "well, maybe He is.." The Jews were blind. They did not believe in Him. When He claimed what He did, they did not understand, they made ready to stone Him. I think Jesus knew this, He knew the Law and the Prophets, He knew they would react this way. So He slipped away and hid Himself, for He knew His time was to come when He would be taken and nailed to the cross.
Also, I haven't the time to look it up right now, but it says that 'He walked among them, and they did not know Him' or something like that anyway.
Rob: Your post that I exerpted this from was excellent. I appreciated he thoughts contained but what I mention above just seems to be sort of a let down if Jesus had to run intead of the Jews accepting His claim.
Myx: Thanks! I would have to say it is a let down, on the Jews part really. But again, the Jews have not to this day in large part accepted His claim, neither to be the Messiah, or the One and Only Son of G-d. They're still waiting for their Messiah, which, if they had done their math in Daniel, they would KNOW it was Jesus. I'm sure you probably already knew all this. But, they'll have their chance. And, yes, it makes perfect sense, did my reply make a hair of sense?
cheers
Myxomatosis