Is the Lord's Prayer a Hoax?

by Robdar 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Robdar

  From what I've learned about Judaism, Jews believe that God is both male and female and cannot be described in one gender only. This leads to this question: Is the Lord's Prayer, which starts out with "Our Father, who art in Heaven" really be a prayer that Jesus taught us to pray?

  If Jesus was Jewish, and evidence seems to point that way, why would he use a male gender identity to describe God when teaching people how to pray?

  Could this scripture have been altered by the early church?

  Any comments are appreciated. I am off to work and will check this thread later.

  Robyn
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  mizpah

  The first important question should be whether it is true that Judaism viewed God as male and female. My sense is that the Old Testament uses the male gender to describe God because of male primacy in the Scriptures. This is not to denigrate the woman's position. But God is pictured as a King, a Warrior and as a Bridegroom to Israel. Israel, on the other hand, is pictured as a woman, faithful and unfaithful.

  One should be careful when stating a premise that may not be true and then build a theory around it. A teacher who had a course in logic gave a good example.

  Snow is white, paper is white...therefore snow must be made of paper.
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  Robdar

  Hi Mizpah, you said:

  One should be careful when stating a premise that may not be true and then build a theory around it. A teacher who had a course in logic gave a good example

  I think that the same should apply to your words. Read this from Judaism 101. A very good site for learning basic teachings of Judaism:

  http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

  G-d is Neither Male nor Female

  This followed directly from the fact that G-d has no physical form. As one rabbi explained it to me, G-d has no body, no genitalia, therefore the very idea that G-d is male or female is patently absurd. We refer to G-d using masculine terms simply for convenience's sake, because Hebrew has no neutral gender; G-d is no more male than a table is.

  Although we usually speak of G-d in masculine terms, there are times when we refer to G-d using feminine terms. The Shechinah, the manifestation of G-d's presence that fills the universe, is conceived of in feminine terms, and the word Shechinah is a feminine word.

  Now, back to my original question.....any guesses?

  I really am off to work this time.

  Later
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  MrsQ

  Then wouldn't most of the 'gospel' accounts be a hoax--since Jesus refers to his 'Father' in several instances--and at the time he was sent to trial, was accused of calling himself the Son of God? In fact, his dying words are alleged to have been--"Forgive them FATHER for they know not what they do..."

  I read that many of the things in the gospels have been found to preexist Jesus in Jewish folklore. The writers/editors of the scriptures attributed these sayings to Jesus, but in fact, they are old sayings that were around for centuries before he lived. So--all those nice little bits that make up the sermon on the mount, for instance, are ancient Jewish axioms.

  Q.

  p.s. I can't tell you off-hand, but I think I read it in "Don't Know Much About The Bible", a book by Kenneth C. Davis. I've loaned my copy out so I can't verify that that is where I read it...
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  rem

  We refer to G-d using masculine terms simply for convenience's sake, because Hebrew has no neutral gender; G-d is no more male than a table is.

  I think that pretty much explains it. Also, Jehovah was a warrior god to the Israelites, thus he was perceived as male in that male dominated society.

  What I find interesting is that if the Hebrew language was the perfect language from god (as the JW's taught - we would all learn Hebrew in the New System ) why would it not have a neutral gender to describe god more perfectly?

  rem
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  Gamaliel

  From what I've learned about Judaism, Jews believe ...If Jesus was Jewish

  There is no such thing as "Jews believe" in the sense that you can generalize something about how all Jews understand God. It's like saying "Christians believe" when we know very well that not all Christians believe the same things about God either. Besides, even what some Jews believe now about what most Jews might have believed in the past may not have any bearing on what Jesus believed -- the Jewish religion seems to have evolved over the centuries along with the religions around it. Obviously one big point of the Gospels is to show that many Jews (Sadducees, Pharisees) didn't believe in something that other Jews (Jesus and apostles) believed in.

  That said, Jesus was not the only one depicted in Jewish literature as a rabbi who taught prayers that started off with "Our Father." God was always male, but the image of God as a Father figure seems to start filling in the vacuum that started when Yahweh/Jehovah lost his name due to superstions surrounding its use, out loud and in writing. That was primarily after the last Jewish writings were accepted into the OT.

  If Jesus was Jewish, and evidence seems to point that way, why would he use a male gender identity to describe God when teaching people how to pray?

  A reading of the OT also consistently depicts God as male, so are we to consider the entire OT as a hoax? There are a couple of hints or evidences that God revealed himself in female terms but these evidences are not popular and are not noticed easily except by scholars who tend to find a lot (maybe too much) in subtle or unique choices of wording found in a couple OT passages. Those passages are considered rare exceptions which might trace back to beliefs held by some Jews before the OT writing was begun.

  Could this scripture have been altered by the early church?

  Doesn't seem likely based on late passages in the OT, some passages in the Talmud, many of the "Intertestamental" Jewish writings (200BC - 1 AD). The Church would have to have changed Paul's letters too which made expressions like "to us there is only one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus." Paul wrote many words like this long before any of the Gospels were written.

  There is an interesting theory, based on a monothestic religion promoted in Egypt, the a religion which ultimately becomes monotheistic will tend to make the primary God a Father rather than a Mother. Christianity obviously came out of a long tradition of patriarchal heritage that may also trace back to Egypt.

  I posted an article related to this about 4 days ago at:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/55969/820565/post.ashx#820565 Called: "Why We Don't Call God Mother" (Subject matter is not for the squeamish though.)

  Gamaliel
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  mizpah

  Judaism is not the result of one quotation from a rabbi or one treatise of a Jewish scholar. Judaism has its historical roots in the beliefs of the first century Pharisees. Their beliefs came from their interpretation of the Old Testament. Modern Judaism reflects the same beliefs.

  Of course God has no gender. He is a spirit. But the Old Testament clearly represents him in masculine terms just as Israel is presented in feminine terms. This tradition was clearly carried on the the New Testament. To suggest that the Lord's prayer is something of later origin because it was directed to "Our father" is ludicrous. I suppose the next step is to question Christ's masculinity? Religious feminists are "grasping for straws" to promote their own agenda.
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  OHappyDay

  The Gospels indicate that Jesus was quite familiar with the writings of Isaiah. Long before Jesus, Isaiah referred to God as "our Father." (Isaiah 63:16; 64:8)

  In the present-day Jewish morning prayer synagogue service, Jews still say: "It is You Who are Adonai [YHWH], our God, in heaven and on earth...You are the First and You are the Last, and other than You there is no God...OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN, treat us with kindness for the sake of your great Name that has been proclaimed upon us."

  That is from an Orthodox Jewish prayer book, the Shacharit, or Morning Service, as approved by The Rabbinical Council of America, 1989 edition.
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  BeelzeDub

  We refer to G-d using masculine terms simply for convenience's sake, because Hebrew has no neutral gender; G-d is no more male than a table is.

  If there was no word available in the Hebrew language for Jesus to refer to God as gender neutral, possibly he was trying to convey the qualities of god with regard to the subject at hand and how people in his day could relate to it.

  The lord's prayer deals with topics as providing for our basic needs (daily bread), forgiveness of our errs, and protecting us from evil doers.

  The Jewish culture, for the most part in Jesus day, it was the father of the family, that provided for the family food, protection and was the disciplinarian. Those who listened, would then relate the context of the prayer of one who protects and provides as qualities of god and not the fact that he was male.

  Of course Jesus could have said "Our table who art in heaven...." and that would have made about as much sense as some of the other things he said.
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  Robdar

  Well I just popped in from work and have a date to get to but I just had to address this before I go:

  Religious feminists are "grasping for straws" to promote their own agenda.

  Jesus Christ, Mizpah, get over yourself. I am not a religious feminist and I am not promoting any agenda. Why are your feathers so ruffled to think of God as gender neutral? Now you are calling names and making insults. By doing this, you are immediately discredited.

  I will be back tomorrow because I plan on staying out late tonight. But when I get back, I will be shunning Mizpah.

  Robyn