Conversation with mom today re: apostate material

by Jourles 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Reborn2002

  The Watchtower's own publications from decades past are always more damning in the mind of a current Witness than anything the media or so-called apostate literature could hope to achieve.

  Jourles said:

  Nathan, I've used those arguments in the past. Her explanation is always the same - The light gets brighter. Continuous refinement. It is much easier to address current issues that affect us. Dragging up outdated quotes, according to her, only proves that we are a much better organization today than we were in the past. "At least we are willing to change, unlike Christendom."

  Ahh the indoctrinated mindset of a Jehovah's Witness. You gotta love the automatic defense mechanism instilled by Watchtower programming which prevents members from ANY rational thought using their OWN mind.

  The light gets brighter? Even if it is a complete and utter change? If the Watchtower Society and the organization known as Jehovah's Witnesses are God's only true organization, sole channel, and inspired prophet on earth, for quotes and documentation from Watchtower literature to verify this, see here:

  http://www.quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/organization.htm

  http://www.quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/channel.htm

  http://www.quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/prophet.htm

  then how is it that they got the message wrong in the first place to be required to have "New Light" to change it? Frankly, there are only two possibilities:

  1. The Watchtower Society misinterpreted the message given them by their God, thereby causing the deaths of an untold number of people and implicates them as bloodguilty and NOT God's Prophet. (even Christians must acknowledge that no "prophet" spoken of in the Bible (any translation) misinterpreted God's message when he was directly leading them)
  2. Jehovah God, their almighty God which is supposed to be the personification of love, simply changed his mind and allowed people to die needlessly based on Watchtower doctrine.

  What is an excellent example of this? Organ transplants.

  *** Watchtower 1967 November 15 pp.702-4 Questions from Readers ***

  Questions from Readers

  • Is there any Scriptural objection to donating one's body for use in medical research or to accepting organs for transplant from such a source?-W. L., U.S.A.

  A number of issues are involved in this matter, including the propriety of organ transplants and autopsies. Quite often human emotion is the only factor considered when individuals decide these matters. It would be good, though, for Christians to consider the Scriptural principles that apply, and then make decisions in harmony with these principles so as to be pleasing to Jehovah.-Acts 24:16.

  First, it would be well to have in mind that organ transplant operations, such as are now being performed in an attempt to repair the body or extend a life-span, were not the custom thousands of years ago, so we cannot expect to find legislation in the Bible on transplanting human organs. Yet, this does not mean that we have no indication of God's view of such matters.

  When Jehovah for the first time allowed humans to eat animal flesh, he explained matters this way to Noah: "A fear of you and a terror of you will continue upon every living creature of the earth and upon every flying creature of the heavens, upon everything that goes moving on the ground, and upon all the fishes of the sea. Into your hand they are now given. Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you. Only flesh with its soul-its blood-you must not eat." (Gen. 9:2-4) That allowance was made to Noah, from whom every person now alive descended. Hence, it applies to all of us.

  Humans were allowed by God to eat animal flesh and to sustain their human lives by taking the lives of animals, though they were not permitted to eat blood. Did this include eating human flesh, sustaining one's life by means of the body or part of the body of another human, alive or dead? No! That would be cannibalism, a practice abhorrent to all civilized people. Jehovah clearly made a distinction between the lives of animals and the lives of humans, mankind being created in God's image, with his qualities. (Gen. 1:27) This distinction is evident in His next words. God proceeded to show that man's life is sacred and is not to be taken at will, as may be done with the animals to be used for food. To show disrespect for the sanctity of human life would make one liable to have his own life taken.-Gen. 9:5, 6.

  When there is a diseased or defective organ, the usual way health is restored is by taking in nutrients. The body uses the food eaten to repair or heal the organ, gradually replacing the cells. When men of science conclude that this normal process will no longer work and they suggest removing the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic . However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others. ...

  Modern science has developed many different types of operations that involve human body parts, some common and usually successful and others experimental and often unsuccessful. It is not our place to decide whether such operations are advisable or warranted from a scientific or medical standpoint. It would be well, though, for Christians faced With a decision in this regard to consider the indication as to God's viewpoint presented in the Scriptures. -Eph. 5:10. ...

  It should be evident from this discussion that Christians who have been enlightened by God's Word do not need to make these decisions simply on the basis of personal whim or emotion. They can consider the divine principles recorded in the Scriptures and use these in making personal decisions as they look to God for direction, trusting him and putting their confidence in the future that he has in store for those who love him.-Prov. 3:5, 6; Ps. 119:105.

  [Emphasis Added]

  So at this time Jehovah's Witnesses were not allowed to accept organ transplants, and people died adhering to this belief.

  Yet, a mere 13 years later...

  *** Watchtower 1980 March 15 p.31 Questions from Readers ***

  Questions from Readers

  • Should congregation action be taken if a baptized Christian accepts a human organ transplant, such as of a cornea or a kidney?

  Regarding the transplantation of human tissue or bone from one human to another, this is a matter for conscientious decision by each one of Jehovah's Witnesses . ....

  Clearly, personal views and conscientious feelings vary on this issue of transplantation. It is well known that the use of human materials for human consumption varies all the way from minor items, such as hormones and corneas, to major organs, such as kidneys and hearts. While the Bible specifically forbids consuming blood, there is no Biblical command pointedly forbidding the taking in of other human tissue. For this reason, each individual faced with making a decision on this matter should carefully and prayerfully weigh matters and then decide conscientiously what he or she could or could not do before God. It is a matter for personal decision. (Gal. 6:5) The congregation judicial committee would not take disciplinary action if someone accepted an organ transplant.

  [Emphasis Added]

  Lives were lost as a result of this. Only the willfully ignorant choose to not see.

  Good luck Jourles. I have tried reasoning with my mother and brother as well, but to no avail, the Watchtower blinders are on.

  b
• 

  mizpah

  Jourles,

  My advice would be to ease off any discussion of Watchtower doctrine/policy and cultivate the family relationship you are still able to enjoy. Jehovah's Witnesses have a "defense mechanism" that immediately creates barriers to rational discussions. When you are arguing, they are only thinking of how they can "overcome objections." I doubt any of your sincere efforts are really making a difference in your mother's attitude.

  It has been my experience that such discussions only help individuals who already have doubts about the Watchtower Society. Then, it becomes a valuable tool to sort out the falsehoods of the Watchtower and an aid to make a complete break from the organization.

  But if you appeal to your mother's affection by being a good and caring son, she will have little defense against the greatest weapon you have: LOVE.
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  William Penwell

  The point about the light getting brighter reminds me of the old joke: "What about all these TV commercials that say, this product is now new and improved. Well what were we using before, old and crappy?"

  So if today's "new light" is the truth, what were the dubs telling people before, a bunch of lies?

  Will
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  Farkel

  Jourles,

  Great observations.

  : I asked her to define apostate literature. She said, "anyone that writes negatively about the WTS."

  A line of questioning about that assertion could follow thusly:

  "Why?"

  "Because they speak from God."

  "How can you be sure they speak from God?"

  "Because they do."

  "Not good enough. People can claim anything."

  "OK. They foretold these wicked times we live in, didn't they?"

  "Yes, and so did Socrates three hundred years before Jesus was born. We've always had "wicked times" in our human history. The only problem you have with that argument is that this is by far the BEST time to be living in all of human history. Do you want facts to prove that?"

  "No. I'm a dub. We don't deal in facts. We never dealt in facts. Why should we start now?"

  "So you don't want any facts?"

  "Nope. I just want a new BOOK that I won't read unless they force me to read it. I love those new BOOKS they give us at the assemblies!"

  "You mean those cheesy paperbacks they're now dishing out?"

  "Yeah."

  "Do you folks still beat each other up to get in line and get those books before they run out of those books?"

  "Yeah."

  "You sir, are an idiot. Those books will be obsolete before you read them. You are working for a religion that lives and dies on ever-new-books. Don't you even KNOW this?"

  "I'll 'wait on Jehovah'."

  "No, you'll wait on a book-publishing company to figure out how to save your eternal soul who also happens to make their own books of "truth" obsolete as soon as people quit buying them, you stupid nitwit!"

  "Apostate!"

  "Sigh........."

  Farkel
• 

  Big Tex

  I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!"

  "Why shouldn't I?" he said.

  I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

  He said, "Like what?"

  I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"

  He said, "Religious."

  I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?"

  He said, "Christian."

  I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?"

  He said, "Protestant."

  I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?"

  He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?"

  He said, "Baptist church of god!"

  I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?"

  He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!"

  I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?"

  He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!"

  I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.

  Emo Phillips
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  Viperinus

  mizpah

  But if you appeal to your mother's affection by being a good and caring son, she will have little defense against the greatest weapon you have: LOVE.

  This is much easier said than done. My parents have been telling me for the last 30 years that Armageddon will be here tomorrow. They say it with such conviction. Their relationship with Jehovah is all that matters to them. To cultivate such a family relationship with one spiritually dead son would impede their own relationship with Jehovah, so why should they leave themselves vulnerable to a DA'd son?

  It takes a even playing field to cultivate true family love, very difficult to do when your parents sanctimoniously patronise the very essence of who you are as a person. And how it can hurt! If my beliefs, views, lifestyle are up for criticism and ridicule, by the same token so is their Chistian faith. The difference is I have a lot more ammo than they do!

  They have made their choice to squander their life on this impossible dream. I feel no obligation to cosset this choice.

  V
• 

  acsot

  Reborn:

  then how is it that they got the message wrong in the first place to be required to have "New Light" to change it?

  Man I wish I could remember lines like this when it really counts! Do you have a cure for "minds-going-blank-when-the-pressure-is-on" syndrome?

  Acsot (of the Better-start-taking-more-gingko-biloba class)
• 

  aojumper

  Ascot,

  My sentiments exactly! My argument for the "New Light" Is that the scripture says the light gets brighter. The sun that gives us faint light in the morning ass it rises is still the same star that blinds us at noon. The light hasn't changed persay, it's just gotten brighter, like the scripture says.

  I need to take something for my "in a jamb" mind blank too, let me know how the ginko works, eh?

  Last time my Dad and I got into it, I just yelled fervently back at him, as he spat the same incomprehensable rubbish that we all were once cloned to drone "tell me what happens when they drink the coolade or eat the jell-o are you going to do that too?

  K
• 

  gumby

  Nice job Jourles!

  She also asked if I was still "hunting for news articles that blackball the Society." I told her that I didn't need to hunt for them

  How awful someone would go through the trouble to find smut on the society........just awful!

  Never would the society find smut on anybody else. Were it not for the Organisation.........all of the smut we have on religion, holidays, politics, etc. has been "dug up" by the society to "blackball" every single Organisation on the planet, (religion especially... with the Catholics being the main target) , and all the people included. What hypocracy!

  Gumby
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  mizpah

  Vipernus:

  I sympathized with your situation. It is similar to ours (my wife and me) in our separation from our daughter and her children as well as other close relatives for the last 20 years. The pain and heartache are real. But the fact that your parents are still holding to their Watchtower views after thirty years shows the futility of trying to argue with them. We gave up trying years ago. But we asssured all of them that we loved them deeply and that they would always be welcomed in our home.

  The situation has not changed. But I think they all realize that should they question the Watchtower doctrine some day, they have people who care for them to give solace and comfort as well as to answer some of their doubts. And, in fact, this is what happened to one niece of ours. Our thoughts and prayeers are with you.