This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero 375 Replies latest jw friends

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

    The universe began to exist.

    Therefore: The universe has a first cause.

    1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause - false. It is certainly our common experience that this is true, however the birth of a universe is not a common event. It has been demonstrated that in empty space particles are constantly being born and annihilating each other purely randomly and without cause. It is entirely possible that the birth of our universe mirrors this phenomenon.

    2. The universe began to exist. - Unverifiable. It certainly appears to have had a beginning in the big bang, but there are a number of ideas about the big bang (i.e maybe it was a "big bounce") that don't require a time zero. It's entirely possible that the universe had no beginning. If you dispute this fact, then I would dispute that god had no beginning and challenge you to demonstrate god's "first cause."

    3. Supposing that points 1 and 2 are correct, how does something necessarily having a "first cause" suggest an intelligence of any form? If anything, it simply suggests that our picture of the universe is incomplete, which I think just about any physicist or cosmologist will readily agree with. Simply pointing to a gap in knowledge is not sufficient evidence for belief in anything. Let alone a god with the power to create an entire universe.

  • dubstepped
    dubstepped
    @codedlogic - How do you scientifically demonstrate and measure love?
  • juandefiero
    juandefiero

    I don't feel it was a "loaded" thread.

    There either is evidence or there isn't.

    The fact that some think it's a loaded question perhaps shows their lack of evidence to begin with.

  • Saintbertholdt
    Saintbertholdt
    It has been demonstrated that in empty space particles are constantly being born and annihilating each other purely randomly and without cause.

    ALL experiments that have been carried ARE causal. In other words one has to create a vacuum to measure these events. The creation of the vacuum is causal.

    The universe began to exist. - Unverifiable. It certainly appears to have had a beginning in the big bang, but there are a number of ideas about the big bang

    Current evidence currently points to the big bang. The red shift and cosmic background radiation are the two strongest evidences for this. Corroborative to this is also the Hubble constant. No other theory has such strong support.

    Supposing that points 1 and 2 are correct, how does something necessarily having a "first cause" suggest an intelligence of any form?

    Because it is not physical it therefore must be ex Nihilo. And if that is the case, the strongest idea is God.

    Also the argument is logically consistent and uses material implication.

    So can I have my $500 now?

  • cofty
  • Terry
    Terry

    Imagine needing proof of gravity.

    Imagine needing proof of Mt. Everest.

    Imagine needing proof of a tornado or tsunami or earthquake.

    What is purported to be the greatest living being in all the Universe? God.

    Go figure! We have to ask for proof.

    Things that make you go, "Hm-m-m-m-m"

  • Heartsafire
    Heartsafire

    Juandefiero,

    Im assuming you mean a god like the one the JW's claim to worship, as in a creator? And, if you really wanted to know if a creator exists from a scientific aspect, couldn't you research this yourself? No disrespect or anything, but it seems less likely that you are looking for reasons to believe and more likely that you are looking for reasons to further support your atheist viewpoints. Also, I agree with cofty on this matter.

  • cofty
    cofty

    If I was god I would have written "I made this" at the start of every chromosome in every living thing.

    Why didn't she think of that?

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen

    @Terry,

    Yes, how could any infidel ever demand to see proof of Allah's existence and the infallibility of the Holy Koran!

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic
    How do you scientifically demonstrate and measure love?

    There are multiple ways to measure love including the use of electroencephalography, magnetoencephalography, functional magnetic resonance imaging, and computer aided tomography - just to name a few.

    http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2015.00071/full

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/love-on-the-brain-2096672.html

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