This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero 375 Replies latest jw friends

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  shepherdless

  Virtually every argument that I have heard or read for the existence of God is an appeal to emotion, obviously fallacious, or both.

  The only exception is the "Who created the universe?" argument. That is the only argument that used to make me stop and think. It has been around in various guises since at least Thomas Aquinas in the 13th Century. I read Saintbertholt's first comment above as just another version if it. Fisherman's last argument is yet another.

  The problem with the "Who created the universe?" argument is that:

  
  

  1. As I understand it, quantum mechanics basically predicts the universe would self unpack without the need of a "creator". (This is admittedly a complicated topic.)

  
  

  2. It fails the "endless turtles" argument. In other words, if God created the universe, then who created God? (Surely God could not have always just existed; that makes no sense. There must have been someone who created God.) And then who created the creator of God? And if you have the answer to that, who created the creator of the creator of God. etc

  
  

  There is of course the additional problem of trying to link this theoretical creator of the universe to the biblical God.
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  punkofnice

  If god exists or if god doesn't, I can't do anything about it. Said 'god' certainly hasn't told me which one they are.

  Personally, I don't believe in a god now that Freddie Mercury is dead.
• 

  Saintbertholdt

  It has been around in various guises since at least Thomas Aquinas in the 13th Century. I read Saintbertholt's first comment above as just another version if it. Fisherman's last argument is yet another.

  I believe it even goes a bit further than that to early Islam. Muslims had some interesting ideas before their religious conservatism destroyed their critical skills.

  It fails the "endless turtles" argument.

  Can ANY infinity be demonstrated at all?

  "Infinite totalities do not exist in any sense of the word (i.e., either really or ideally). More precisely, any mention, or purported mention, of infinite totalities is, literally, meaningless." - Abraham Robinson

  Them turtles gotta run out sometime.
  
  

  There is of course the additional problem of trying to link this theoretical creator of the universe to the biblical God.

  Its a tough sell.
• 

  trevor

  There are so many ideas about what 'god' actually is, that whenever i'm asked if i believe in god, i reply that before i can answer, i need to know what THEY mean by god. I ask them to describe the god that they are asking me to believe in - then i will be able to reply. A JW answered, 'the god of the Bible.' I replied; Hebrew or Greek Scriptures? Because despite the many different gods that have been believed in, the mystery remains.
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  TheOldHippie

  Then I guess this is the thread that really would make you the most famous, revered and hailed person in the history of mankind! And imagine - finding that person and that argument - right here!
• 

  TheOldHippie

  sheperdless, "Surely God could not have always just existed; that makes no sense."

  But before matter existed, there existed no time. So "Jesus was with God for countless millions of years" - well, he wasn't because time did not exist before creation. If, of course, a spirit being is void of matter. But imgaining a "time" when time did not exist - gives me headache and makes me grab my daily bottle of wine. If God is outside the Universe, in an "area" where there is no matter - he could not have created during so and so many years, but then he created everything in an instant, whereas the results of that act of creation expanded, lasted, forwards in time.

  This evening is going to be long. And heavy.
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  atomant

  Geez thats easy to prove just ask any jw and have at least a day put aside to be bible bashed.
  
• 

  shepherdless

  Hi Saintbertholdt, I didn't know that about Islam. I will try to look it up when I get a chance.

  Hi TheOldHippie, yes it is interesting to think about. Personally, I can't see how putting God outside the space-time continuum solves the "endless turtles" conundrum, but it can only be good to think about it from every possible angle.
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  Coded Logic

  While it might be true that believing in (mythological) unicorns or in anything that has not been measured or tested does not establish that they are real does not invalidate the existence of Jehovah by comparing belief in the existence of Gods to belief in the existence of unicorns.
  - Fisherman

  The Hadith hasn't been "invalidated" am I therefore justified in believing Mohammad actually flew to heaven on a horse? Can you "establish" that he didn't?

  Harry Potter hasn't been "invalidated" does that mean I'm justified in believing that witches and warlocks actually fly around on brooms and that Hogwarts is a real academy? Can you prove otherwise?

  Positive claims require positive evidence. Because things which don't exist and things for which there is no evidence are epistemologically identical.
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  AFRIKANMAN

  "Has anybody on this forum spent more hours and invested more effort patiently answering questions than I have?" - that's your trip man !

  At the end of the day if one chooses to believe in a God, greater intelligence, designer, personality behind the design or not ...............so what - NONE of us can Prove conclusively any of this either way ...anyway .............back to square one and in 10 years from now if this question is raised it will almost be a ditto of the current one -

  I will say this once again about this forum : It has developed a signature that strongly implies that if you dont comment "in-line" with a certain thought grouping here eg Evolution etc ...if you present a contrary view you are going to me insulted, torn apart, abused by the underlying "following" - This has become a forum biased strongly only to Evolutionary / Atheistic view - and we dont like you to go against the flow !

  Maybe the Culta-nouveau !