Did Jesus really suffer? Really?

by purrpurr 42 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  cofty

  “Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried and as for our pains he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. But he made him sick If you will set his soul as a guilt offering he will see his offspring…the righteous one my servant will bring a righteous standing to many people, and their errors he himself will bear…it was with the transgressors that he was counted in, and he himself carried the very sin of many people and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.” - Isa.53

  “Jesus put sins away through the sacrifice of himself…the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many” - Heb.9:26,28

  “He committed no sin nor was deception found in his mouth…He himself bore our sin in his own body upon the stake that we may be done with sins and live to righteousness…And by his stripes you were healed.” - 1Pet.2:22,24

  The one who did not know sin he made to be sin for us that we might become God’s righteousness by means of him.” - 2 Cor.5:20,21
  

  “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by ransom paid by Christ Jesus. God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was in order to exhibit his own righteousness because he was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past while God was exercising forbearance, so as to exhibit his own righteousness in this present season, that he might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man who has faith in Jesus.” - Rom.3:23-26
  

  “And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, and yet not for ours only but also for the whole worlds” - 1Jhn.2:2

  “The love is in this respect not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.” - 1 Jhn.4:10
  
• 

  David_Jay

  All the Scriptures you quote are correct, but none of them, not one says that they are payment to God for sins, as if God is demanding shed blood or needs blood.

  What the texts are talking about is that the shedding of blood, or offering of life (remember that blood represents life in the Bible) of Jesus is in order to heal people from the effects of sin.

  Remember, all these things are to ransom us from the effects of sin, not from God. God was not holding us in exchange for ransom, sin was. It is written: "God bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature."--2 Peter 1.4.

  The Gospel is that people are saved from a mortal nature to share in a divine, incorruptible immortal nature.

  Again, I am only stating that the Watchtower view of God demanding blood to release us from sin is not the same message Chrsitianity has taught since the beginning. The Gospel is about sharing in God's very eternal life, not about settling an argument between God and the Devil.
• 

  cofty

  The JWs teach that Jesus death was about purchasing the value of the perfect life of Adam.

  It is legalistic nonsense. I explained this at length in my article...

  The NT clearly teaches that Jesus was a sin offering in the same style as OT sacrifices.

  The wrath of an vengeful god was propitiated by the sight of Jesus' bloody corpse.
• 

  David_Jay

  Again, even the idea that you present of the Old Testament is shared basically by the religious traditions that contributed to Watchtower-ism. It is the JW idea that I am saying is completely wrong.

  They say God demanded sacrifices in the Temple to cover over sins, and they still have you convinced that this is so. Is it not written: "Do I eat the blood of bulls or drink the blood of he -goats?"--Psalm 50.13.

  If the "wrath of a vengeful god" was satisfied by blood sacrifice, it was not the God of the Old or New Testament , as the JWs teach. Have you never read the Scriptire that says: "It is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats take away sins." And again the Scriptures say: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire."--Hebrews 10.1-7.

  If Scripture teaches that God does not eat the blood of sacrifices nor even desires these, then why the sacrifice of Christ? Again the Scriptures answer, that "you may come to share in the divine life." (2 Peter 1.4) If God offers a life that grants "divine life," what other source can it have but God?

  The death of a perfect man cannot offer a share in God's life. Only that of God can do so. And God does not need his own life. He offers it for humanity for humans "to share in the divine life." That is the Good News, not what the Witnesses have sadly taught you.

  Besides, why would you defend the Watchtower view? And what is better news than being offered a "share in the divine life"? If the Gospel the JWs preach is less than that, how is that the Good News? It is not. It is another, accursed gospel.
• 

  cofty

  Besides, why would you defend the Watchtower view?

  I'm doing the exact opposite of that. Did you not read a single word I wrote?

  The entire OT sacrificial system was about vicarious punishment -  The WT don't get that fact at all.
• 

  David_Jay

  Yes, I did. And it is the Watchtower view, not Judaism's or Christianity's.

  For instance, the Jewish view is described here at http://www.jewfaq.org/m/qorbanot.htm and other places on the Internet and in written Jewish sources.

  Being a Sephardic Jew myself I can testify that Jews did not see the sacrifices according to what you wrote, but the JWs did, and they influenced your reading. You just don't realize it yet.

  So yes, it is the Watchtower view, even what you wrote.
• 

  cofty

  it is the Watchtower view

  No it isn't. JWs do not understand vicarious sacrifice in regards to Jesus' death.

  In case you didn't notice my article is called "The Gospel Contrasted With the Watchtower Doctrine of the Ransom".

  “Jesus put sins away through the sacrifice of himself…the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many” - Heb.9:26,28

  God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood - Rom.3
  

  He himself bore our sin in his own body upon the stake that we may be done with sins and live to righteousness…And by his stripes you were healed.” - 1Pet.2:22,24

  These texts are a total mystery to JWs. Ask them about Jesus' death and they will go straight to Adam; perfect life; ransom; etc etc. Legalistic bullshit.

  
  
• 

  David_Jay

  And as to the principle of vicarious punishment and atonement, it has been the touchstone of JWs since 1879 when Russell separated from those who published "Herald of the Morning" and began to publish the first editions of the Watchtower. It has been understood that way of the Old Testament sacrifices and applied to Christ in that fashion ever since. You can probably Google Russell's comments about it easily.
• 

  cofty

  All the Scriptures you quote are correct, but none of them, not one says that they are payment to God for sins - DJ

  For instance, the Jewish view is described here.... - DJ

  Another important concept is the element of substitution. The idea is that the thing being offered is a substitute for the person making the offering, and the things that are done to the offering are things that should have been done to the person offering. The offering is in some sense "punished" in place of the offerer.
  
• 

  cofty

  it has been the touchstone of JWs since 1879

  I cover all of that in detail in my article which you obviously didn't read.