by turtleturtle 146 Replies latest jw friends
I don't think the outside world is really going to be interested in the JW's stance. I say this because lots of fundie weirdos believe the same rubbish.
In truth, nobody really cares what the JWs say. People just get on with life and don't answer the door if JWs knock.
In the grand scheme of things I don't think this will gain much 'anti-JW' traction.
I might be wrong.
Please remember I don't agree that homosexuality is a sin and I have taught my kids to respect most people's lifestyles, but in doing so I taught them that other people do view homosexuality as a sin.
FMF, my wife is a dub. She finds homosexuality disgusting. I've had to work hard to counter her influence with our kids. I do not take this subject lightly; not that I was accused of that.
Holding outdated moronic non-biblical or biblical teachings as truth and raising your children to believe them may indeed be moronic but I don't feel it's discrimination.
Isn't defending speech we don't agree with as important as defending speech we do agree with? Isn't the defending of speech/ideas/actions (that are lawful) that we don't agree with the real test of freedom and liberty?
Anyway, those videos suck. My kids watched one or two at my inlaws house and they laughed pretty hard at the cultiness of it all. I caught hell for that,since everything bad is my fault.
I hope the more "mainstream" they become the more sick of them people will become.
Like that other thread where the lady wore that huge jayuu.org lapel pin for her medal ceremony with Obama. WTF is up with that!
if telling someone to sit at the back of a bus is racism, then telling someone they shouldn't have an intimate relationship is obviously homophobic. What's more of a deprivation, where you sit on a bus or whether you can have an intimate relationship?
Except that is not what they are doing. The equivalent would be them believing that black people who sit at the from of the bus won't go to heaven. It would be crazy - but not really denying anyone the right to sit where they chose.
That's why, for example, many JW parents would be willing to meet and associate with their exJW son's girlfriend and would have them in their lives but wouldn't want to meet their exJW son's boyfriend.
Technically, a JW parent shouldn't be willing to meet and associate with their exJW son's legal wife and family. So trying to make it a gay issue is smoke and mirrors - it's the "ex" part that causes the shunning.
Here is my question: IF IF IF IF I believed homosexuality, with or without sex, was against bible teaching would it be discriminatory to teach that to my kids? And if not should I have to use preapproved language vetted by the LGBTQ community?
Does everyone have to believe that homosexuality is ok and teach that to their kids?
Some would want it to be as you describe and they seem to be the ones struggling with the fundamental issue that the religious people who believe these things have the right to teach these things to their kids - as long as they are not publicly using hate speech or discriminating against people and people have had the chance to prove the video contains the latter and so far failed.
Remember the bible only comments on a sex act, not the relationship. The sin in both cases would be exactly the same: fornication (whether homosexual or heterosexual). This is an example of the type of discrimination that occurs as a result of the prejudice encouraged by JW teachings like this video.
I think that is wishful thinking - it doesn't say for instance that a same gender couple can marry as long as they don't have sex. You are also arguing that some local application of the rules is unfair as though that proves that the rules themselves are discriminatory. They are equally judgmental about different sex acts between married hetero-sexual couples although for obvious reasons, these are less likely to come to light.
Freedom of religion is fine. Be in the kkk and make racist cartoons or make cartoons about gay people but why should it be shielded from criticism for what it is?
They shouldn't escape criticism for it. But the criticism will be more powerful and convincing if it is kept accurate.
Making claims about the video containing hate speech and discrimination just weakens the message because when people watch the video and don't see those things, they may then dismiss this and other criticisms. An opportunity lost.
At the end of the day, they have their beliefs and it's clearly based on the bible. We might not agree with these beliefs, but they have the right to hold, teach and preach them. If anything, they should be used as an example and the direction that other, far more vocal, religious groups that do want to discriminate against people should be encouraged to move.
This non ex-JW thought it a cruel and damaging message:
Presumably he's over-reacting too.
I'm sorry that some of us have upset the hierarchy of criticisms that we're allowed to lob at the JWs, I'll climb back into my box ;-)
Because both the OT and the NT explicitly condemn gay sex. There is no sensible way to get around that.
This non ex-JW thought it a cruel and damaging message. Presumably he's over-reacting too.
Not an exJW no, but "a gay child of fundamentalist Christians" so probably an even more extreme upbringing and belief system so no wonder he / she finds it so damaging. I'm not surprised some things are triggers for some people if it reminds them of their own past circumstances and they project their own issues because of it. But some individuals outrage isn't proof that something is necessarily outrageous.
So what is your solution? Should there be a government approved list of beliefs? Should parents be told what they can and can't tell their children? Who will decide what is on this list? How will it be enforced?
Basically, "OMG, this video is so terrible we should ... [do what exactly?]".
Use a hashtag? If that is all it warrants then it makes my argument that it's not as bad as some are trying to portray it.
I'll climb back into my box
I guess you are trying to imply you are somehow being oppressed and not allowed to share your opinion?
There are plenty of sensible Christians who do interpret the Bible that way. Why shouldn't JWs join them?
So the plan is to reform the WTS and make them more acceptable to people so they can prosper and thrive?
The bible is a corrupted book.....totally unreliable and inconsistent. It really doesn't matter if the WTBT$ thinks it must subscribe to it's anti Gay policy because it's in the bible. The WTBT$ makes it's own rules and their level of inconsistency on this matter and others rivals the Mormons.
The slavery issue puts a stop to this argument. Every religion can and will change it's beliefs....... if not to do so would bring about it's destruction.
The WTBT$ is a corrupt construct and it's ability to shuck and duck it's humane responsibility makes it's dogma totally unreliable.
We left it because it sucks.
The Video we have been discussing is corrupt. It demonstrates an anti homosexual bias aimed at children. While it does not use inflammatory language it delivers and all too simple message that reaffirms a sick twisted point of view for those who can not adjust to the differences among humans...... be it skin color, appearance or sexual preferences among consenting adults.
There are plenty of sensible Christians who do interpret the Bible that way. Why shouldn't JWs join them?
If the pressure becomes great enough they probably will.
Very, very doubtful this would ever happen. Whilst there is a very slim chance they could sell something to Western Witnesses at some point in the future, don't forget that there are large contingents of Witnesses in countries where homosexuality is still fighting be be legal let alone tolerated or accepted. They would never risk the schism.
Jehovah's Witnesses have stuck to their guns for years on things like a global flood, 607 maths, only 6000 years of human presence on the earth, anti evolution, literal acceptance of things like Lot's wife becoming a pillar of salt and Jonah living in the belly of a fish for three days.
They have never even shown the slightest of signs that they would move to accepting heterosexual activity outside of marriage let alone accepting something like gay marriage. They can't even face up to trying to present some loving encouragement to young Witnesses who may be gay, it's still basically pray for it to go away.
Don't forget as well that the Witnesses don't care what the world says if the membership are happy with the status quo. Right now 99% of Witnesses think the latest video and Awake are the most moderate and reasonable pronouncements on the subject ever. The GB only promote change when it suits commercial interests and this subject does not touch them commercially at all.
