Another one that Jdubs miss
by HawayMan 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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waton
" I am he" (since 1919) as an arrogant, self-praising answer to the legit question: "who really is the faithful and discreet slave????" math. 24:45. instead:
"keep asking--"
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Disillusioned JW
Isn't the claim of saying "I am he" about claiming to be the Messiah/Christ, not "the faithful and discreet slave"? Note that a parallel verse is Matthew 24:5 where it says "I am the Christ". It is an interesting thought though that the "I am here" reference could be referring to claiming to be someone else, instead of claiming to be Christ. Also the reference of "The time is at hand" is an interesting one, especially in the context of falsely claiming to come in the name of Christ (if one thinks of it coming with the claim of being a representative of Christ) and of leading ones astray.
But Bart Ehrman (and some atheist scholars/authors) said that when the gospel of Luke was written Christians were wondering why Christ hadn't returned yet, and thus the Gospel was written to give the impression that Christ had said a lot of time would go by before Christ returns. The gospel of Luke is also the one about the man of noble birth going to a far away land to obtain a kingdom and then, after considerable time has gone by, returning as king. (See Luke 19:11-15.)
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punkofnice
...and the GB will continue to hypnotise them with WTBT$ propaganda so that they can't see any discrepancy between their own corrupted Bible and mainstream Bible translations.
I don't really believe in this Bible or God stuff anymore. No disrespect to 'believers'. It seems a complete waste of time and a delusion. You can argue the toss about this scripture and that scripture until the cows come home. It'll not get very far with a fully hypnotised Jobo.
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waton
Isn't the claim of saying "I am he" about claiming to be the Messiah/Christ, not "the faithful and discreet slave"?
DJ, for all practical purposes, JC was the Faithful and Discreet Slave during the 3 1/2 years of his ministry. but only one of many competing teachers.
The wt leadership claims that same role. Their "enthroned king of 1914", has done nothing but rule through them.
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Disillusioned JW
waton, who do you think Jesus Christ (whether he was a real being or only a literary character) meant by the term "faithful and discreet slave"? The biblical passage about the "faithful and discreet slave" has long appeared very vague to me, even during my last several years as a ministerial servant. I came to conclude (after consulting various commentaries of the churches, after ceasing to attend JW meetings) that it most likely meant those faithfully serving as ministers/preachers teaching within individual congregations of Christianity, but I was even uncertain of that possibility.
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nowwhat?
Christ means anointed. Who are always talking about being anointed!? The fds!
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Bobcat
who do you think Jesus Christ (whether he was a real being or only a literary character) meant by the term "faithful and discreet slave"?
At this link (off site) I have a number of links and references to research into various aspects of the F&DS parable. I posted this also for the sake of lurkers.
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johnamos
Bobcat, in the same manner of discussing 'steward' vs. 'slave', what are your thoughts in the use of 'coming' (erchomai) vs. 'presence' (parousia)?
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Bobcat
Hi John,
I'm glad you brought this up. I have a post (here - off site) devoted to the word parousia. But the focus of the post is on whether the NT ever associates Jesus' parousia with his enthronement (as the WT does).
When I get a chance I am going to have to add a post discussing the differences between erchomai and parousia.
The first difference between these two words is that erchomai is a verb; parousia is a noun. Erchomai expresses movement, parousia is an event. And thus, the two words can be used in the same context, such as at Mt 24:36-44. The verbs in the context describing Jesus' "coming" (vss. 37, 42, 44) are all part of the event, his parousia. (vs. 39)
Parousia means "presence," but the way it is used in the NT and anciently gives it an added flavor that, to me, "presence" does not convey. It is more like an official state visit, with all that such a visit would include.
In the NT (as my link shows), parousia is associated with Jesus rewarding his faithful servants and punishing the others. Mt 24:27 associates it with sudden and widespread effects. And with death, such as one might find on a large battlefield. (Mt 24:28 - for which, see footnote # 38 in the NET Bible here.)
To me, "advent" much better encapsulates how the NT uses parousia. "Presence" doesn't carry any of those overtones. But I would say that "presence" much better encapsulates what the WT teaches about Jesus' parousia, that is, an invisible presence that only a few know about, something much different from how the NT presents it.