What’s up with the modern Nation of Israel?

by DATA-DOG 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Being raised a Dub I never voted. I’m not “political” really. I’m not a Republican or a Democrat, not a Liberal or a Conservative.

    I’m pretty middle of the road. I want everyone to have a fair shake if possible in this life, but I definitely don’t believe in forced equality, that’s just not possible.

    Things seem a mess and there is no good choice to vote for. Trump and Biden... Yeah... neither is good, but I digress.

    So, my GFs family are die hard Pentecostals ( UPC? ) Down with UPC?? Yeah you know me!! I couldn’t resist... Anyhow, they are ate up with the idea that the USA is God’s instrument to protect Israel. Lots of Christians seem to believe this and its nonsense in my opinion.

    Where did this idea that Israel matters even come from? Seems like the idea is kept alive by old, white Xians. I wonder what they would all say if Israel was hit by a meteor and wiped off the face of the Earth and there’s not rapture or end of the world?

    Has anyone researched this subject? Any websites I can go to? What do you think about it? I think the idea of protecting Israel has to be one the dumbest, progress limiting wastes of time and money ever conceived.

    DD

  • resolute Bandicoot
    resolute Bandicoot

    Here is an idea that we are not allowed to discuss, maybe, just maybe there are folk in Israel that are really clever and very good at manipulating others to do their bidding, fighting and dying etc.

    RB

  • smiddy3
    smiddy3

    Well my thoughts on the matter is that fundamentalist Christians take the scriptures literally about GOD turning his attention back to the Jews and redeeming them . Where it refers to spiritual Israel they apply it to literal/physical Israel?

    I think they got blown away by the Jews returning to Israel in 1948 and getting established as a State.And they believe it`s fulfilment of Bible prophecy ? Remember the Zionist movement ?

    And the early Watchtower was "Zions Watchtower and Herald of Christs Presence"

    Then again what do I know ?

    just my 2 cents worth.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Israel is a haven of democracy in a region of Islamic fascism. Some of those neighbours have vowed to push Israel into the sea. If any country on earth deserves the support of western democracies it is the state of Israel. The other great thing about supporting Israel is that they do a fantastic job of helping themselves.

    On the other hand, the occupation of the West Bank is a disgrace. There are many times when Israel makes it very difficult for their friends to be supportive.

    For a perspective from both sides see The Palestine - Israel Conflict by Dan Cohn-Sherbok & Dawould El-ALami or for the view of an Israeli who is critical of his country see Cursed Victory - A History of Israel and the Occupied Territories by Ahron Bregman. A good history of the formation of modern Israel is A Line in the Sand by James Barr.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    The way forward for the Palestinians is difficult to see, without similar support as that which the Israeli State has received, not that I am advocating supplying the Palestinians with Arms as Israel has been, but with support to bring about a Democratic Secular State. The problem is that the religious influence is the most powerful it seems. Would a secular State be really possible ?

    Israel too has its problem with a strong Religious faction that makes it not really secular in its make up.

    There needs to be a Two State Solution, with an evening up of power between the two States, and both being made to observe International Law and Human Rights for all, this is almost impossible to envisage being achieved. Of course, as well, there are other States in the Middle East mix, all posing more problems. I fear the region will be problematical for many decades to come.

  • Carmichael
    Carmichael

    My racial background is Jewish (or Hebrew, if you prefer--I'm always fascinated how non-Jews are always up-in-arms on wanting to tell me what label to wear...amyway).

    The modern republic or nation of Israel was never meant to be religious. It was meant to be secular--and at least on paper, it is. Following the model of the United States (and since there were various forms of Judaism), Israel promised freedom of religion.

    But that flew out the window with the fanaticism that followed the Six-Day War of 1967.

    For those who are unfamiliar with it, the Six-Day War was a June war in 1967 in which Israel fought against Egypt, Syria, and Jordan that ended with Israel gaining control of the territory that had religious significance for the Jews, namely the Temple mound, along with the Western Wall. The war didn't start out with that in mind (it began with Syrian and Egyptian military forcing UN Emergency Forces from the Sinai Peninsula). But today the story seems to be told in the Israeli mind as if the original goal was to regain the religious territories by the Israeli armies.

    There is a difference between Israeli and Jewish too. Israeli refers to those who live in and have official citizenship in the modern country of Israel. Jewish refers to the entire civilization of peoples who are Hebrew, whether or not they officially belong to a Jewish denomination--this also includes Israelis.

    After the Six-Day War, the religious clergy in Israel began to attribute the winning of the war to the fulfillment of prophecy. They gained greater and greater control in the country until only the Orthodox Jewish religion and their clergy became the religious voice in politics. With money and power, the Orthodox began to influence the government by getting their people elected.

    Eventually, the Orthodox destroyed most other forms of Jewish religious belief in Israel (though they still exist, but in very small amounts). They did this with the help of the government political machine in Israel to the point that the generation following the Six-Day War now identifies itself in either one of two ways: religious or secular. The word "Orthodox" no longer needs to be used.

    In the United States, Protestants (and even Catholics to a smaller amount) began to view this recapturing of the Western Wall and the Mound as a sign that God was indeed still with the Jews. This began the development of new theology, especially in Evangelical circles.

    With the rise of the Religious Right in the 1980s, many political figures adopted this view and began to align with Israel's now religious-backed government. To the Religious Right, who believed that God had to restore the Kingdom to Israel before the Return of Christ, to vote against Israel politically was to "vote against God," you found American political figures aligning themselves with Israel for the most part.

    But for the most part, in America and increasingly with the secular Israelis, Jews don't like how Isreal has been run since the Six-Day War. For instance, Jews can no longer make Israel their homeland unless they convert to Orthodox Judaism. That is currently law.

    Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu is considered guilty of corruption, but he is backed by the Orthodox-run religious government in Israel. The religious Christian political force in American politics won't back down from supporting him because their churches keep teaching such odd teachings about Israel. In the meantime, many Jews still can't make Israel their homeland because they refuse to become Orthodox or even religious (many Jews are agnostic, atheist, or at least non-practicing or even of another faith),

    It's a mess, but there you have it.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    The Modern Nation of Israel is nothing short of a miracle. After being scattered to the four corners of the earth, losing their Hebrew language, and having survived numerous attempts of wiping them out, the Jewish people reestablished their nation of Israel after 2000 years of absence. It is simple mind-boggling.

    Who has heard such a thing?

    Who has seen such things?

    Shall a land be born in one day?

    Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? - Isiah 66:8

    It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, from Pathros and Cush, from Elam and Shinar, from Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Isaiah 11:11-12)

    Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy

    “There was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them.But there was no breath in them.

    Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.”

    So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.” (Ez 37:7-10)

    “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’ Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel… And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the Lord.” (Ez 37:11-14)

    This event is UNIQUE in human history. The primary purpose of this event is to ready the Jewish people for the reestablishment of the throne of King David. This Davidic throne has been empty for some 2600 years when Zedekiah had his eyes put out by Nebuchadnezzar and was carried off captive.

    Their promised King entered Jerusalem once before seated on a colt of a donkey. He was not treated very well at all at that time. And so, he stated the terms of his return:

    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Mt. 23: 36-38


    While Christians realize that their "blessed hope" is the rapture where (if alive at the time) they will be bodily carried to heaven as Jesus was, or (if already died) resurrected to heaven, they also realize that they are only "grafted in" to an already existing tree, the house of Israel. Christianity is not the root, only the branches.

    After the rapture and during the murderous and earth shattering reign of the anti-Christ where perhaps billions will be slain through the wars that he starts in his quest for global dominion, Jesus waits patiently for his people to ask him nicely to return.

    For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Mt. 23: 36-38

    Israel is perhaps the safest place on earth. Because it will never again become uninhabited. Jesus was promised a nation, a kingship, and a people; and come hell or high water he's going to get it.


    that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whomsoever he will and sets over it even the lowliest of men.’ - Daniel 4: 17




  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Carmichael,

    That was very informative. Thank you.

    It is a mess, and it seems Religiousity is interwoven throughout.

    DD

  • silentbuddha
    silentbuddha

    A nation under the control of religious zealots who believe they are god's chosen people, surrounded by multiple nations whose religion believes that they are god's chosen people can only result in war that will never cease.

    Once society can move past these idiot labels such as chosen / favored people will you see any real peace in that region. Which means good luck ever seeing any real peace in the "Middle East"

  • Anna Marina
    Anna Marina

    Watchtower is an organization but its a religion...it claims Jesus became invisibly present in 1914.

    There are some Jews (I believe it is those who accept the Patriarchs) who, rejecting Jesus Christ as the Messiah, say that the Messiah is not a person but an Age. So a New Age starts when a particular moment in time comes.

    Is it a secular idea? Is it a religious idea? Is is a secular, religous idea? Whatever, it is similar to Communism and the idea of a search for a society through a 3-stage theory of progress bit like a.......pyramid.

    Impressed by progress, Joseph Rutherford felt that cream separators were evidence the Messiah had arrived. He also boldly told everyone that millions now living would never die and that all religion was a snare and a racket.

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