Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    In the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of Jesus. This can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of Jesus there would be no Christianity. I am not so sure of that, but I am more sure that Dr. Gary Habermas' Minimal Facts Approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.

    Here is a 22 minute video on the topic. From 1:30 to 6:41 the video addresses the scholars who agree with the minimal facts in Habermas' Minimal Facts. It is telling.

    Over all the video is well worth the 22 minutes of your life spent watching it.

    Remember, the Norse god Odin promised to rid the Earth of ice giants. There are no ice giants alive today. There is no other evidence for the lack of ice giants so Odin must be real. We even have a day of the week named after Odin (Wednesday aka "Woden's Day") and since our modern calendar uses Odin's name Odin must be a historical figure. Thursday is named after Thor ("Thor's Day") and Friday is named after Frey (aka Frigg for "Frigg's Day").

    If you don't believe in Odin, Thor, and Freya it may be because of this saying -

    "The difference between a Christian and an atheist is an atheist believes in one less god."

    or not.

    Either way, I do not appreciate intellectual dishonesty by those who purport to be academic scholars.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDB7hIBIb38

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    Great video, the claims put forward by so-called Christian scholars are easily refutable with simple logic. I’ve done it a few times on this forum. But then people have to accept the logic.

    “You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

    Daniel Patrick Moynihan

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    "Not in this body. When are you goody-goody fools going to understand?"

    -Skeletor.

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    I accept the resurrection of Jesus as the basis of Christianity. As Paul wrote “ If Christ were not raised up your faith is useless ……we are men to be pitied” ( 1 Cor. 15 . Summary of it)

    Such an event, however, is not supportable by historical evidence. He died as a criminal with no official record. His resurrection was only seen and accepted by his followers so is not in any secular history. Contemporary writers like Josephus and Tacitus comment on his living and gaining followers but not being raised.

    So , I see it as a matter of faith. We “ walk by faith, not by sight “ .

  • pistolpete
    pistolpete

    byu/MadeofStarstoo

    Bet on 100%

    Every plant, every bug, every animal and every human is part of a life cycle. There exist some variation but in general terms all life will grow, age, reproduce, and die. Our PIMI family and friends are pushing all their chips to the center of the table betting on something that’s never happened. All because it’s vaguely and cryptically written in a book. They are betting away this life in hopes to roll a 10 on a dice that only goes to 6.

    They have been convinced to bet against 100%

    They think they are playing with house money because they will win the eternity jackpot. So they go all in with the time they have to win eternity. Eternity was never up for grabs.

    Spend your time wisely. It runs out, 100% of the time.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @BluesBrother: the testimonium Flavianum is widely accepted to be a forgery and there are grave questions about the authenticity of the Tacitus passage, he does mention Christians but the establishment of Christ was introduced later in translation.

    The question remains, why if the historicity of Jesus was established at the time, do his followers need to resort to forgeries, editing of the story and sometimes outright suppression of stories that don’t align with the majority opinion.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Its been years but I once used the analogy of the Goldilocks and Three Bears story. Every story has to have some internal logic and continuity for it to be entertaining or even to be understood. My arguing that the story includes the factual sounding details that bears will eat porridge and that girls can break chairs too small for them, does not lead most people to conclude the fanciful aspects of the story to likewise be true.

    Its the fanciful aspects of the story that require corroboration and demonstration. Talking bears cooking porridge in a house for example. Those who would argue for acceptance of the 3 Bears story have much to overcome.

    Someone skeptical of the 3 Bears story might likely ask who wrote it and when. When research reveals that there were multiple versions of the story written by different authors and yet the primary source of the story are unknown a reasonable person would not likely find that reassuring. Goldilocks and the Three Bears - Wikipedia

  • Gman2001
    Gman2001

    "I accept the resurrection of Jesus as the basis of Christianity. As Paul wrote “ If Christ were not raised up your faith is useless ……we are men to be pitied” ( 1 Cor. 15 . Summary of it)"

    amen

  • pistolpete
    pistolpete

    Jesus said; If you have seen me, you have seen the father.

    These words tell us a lot about Jesus and his character because he was basically saying he reflected his father Jehovah PERFECTLY.

    When we read the OT to determine what kind of Being Jehovah is, many Christians become surprise and shocked that this God does not fit the description of a God of Compassion and love that most Christians cite word for word.

    Instead Jehovah is described in the bible as a ruthless, psychopath.

    One example is when Jehovah decides to kill thousands of his most loyal, innocent worshipers. Why? Not because his worshipers have done something bad, or because they are evil.

    But he decides to kill them because he gets ticked off because a King takes a Census.

    But it's not just that. Jehovah reflects all the qualities of a Psychopath by FORCING King David to Choose how he will murder all these loyal worshipers of his.

    A three year famine.

    Imagine what that entails. It takes anywhere between 43 to 70 days for a healthy individual to die of starvation. For Jehovah to come up with that idea, he had to reflect on all the steps of all those thousands of fathers, mothers, and children, who would die of starvation.

    First comes the weakness of not having enough food, then comes the illness because the body becomes compromised and disease takes over. Then the parents start seeing their children slowly starve to death. Then the husband sees his wife die and finally the husband dies, all of starvation.

    Invading Armies, imagine what that implies.

    David pleads with Jehovah reminding him they are innocent. But Jehovah is ruthless and forces David to choose the method of murdering all those innocent people.

    So David picks the pestilence, thinking Jehovah is merciful, and instead, 70,000 mothers, fathers, and children are murdered by Jehovah in 3 days. That's about 1000, innocent humans dying every hour for three days. Not even enough time to bury your loved ones.

    And this is the person whom Jesus said;

    If you have seen me, you have seen the father.

    The reason many are drawn to Jesus is because the account of the resurrection of Lazarus as portrayed in the bible and in Hollywood Movies is made so emotional that it tugs at people's emotions.

    Most can't even cite the other two resurrections because they don't carry that same impact.

    And yet, these people never want to answer the question;

    If Jesus is Love and Powerful, why has it been thousands of years since he presented his life to his father as a ransom of many, and yet has not been able to step in and stop the billions of innocent humans that have gone through unspeakable pain and anguish. Mothers watching their sons being murdered, Fathers watching their daughters being raped, young children being kidnapped, raped, and dismembered.

    I would say 99 percent of us here would not hesitate to stop the evil of this world, IMMEDIATELY if we had the power to do so. We would not wait even a day to stop all the human pain.

    But the fact that's it been thousands of year since Jesus died and still nothing----bespeaks reality.

    It's been Thousands of years----and thousands of more years will pass, until finally, people will accept reality, that He is not coming to save the world because he can't.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    The video starts off doubting Jesus even existed. That's a bias red-flag right off the bat. No serious scholar claims this.

    Consider Alexander the Great (tutrored by Aristotle). The earliest report of him is from 330 BC, plus 300 years after his death. Plutarch is considered the best source for him and he wrote over 400 years after Alexander died.

    There doesn't seem to be much controversy about Alexander the Great, his famed Phalanx war techniques nor about how he died.

    So how do historians determine the likelihood of historicity?

    * Primary Sources - These are documents written in the period under examination. For ancient history, primary sources are very rare.

    * Secondary Sources - Documents written after the period being researched. Usually more plentiful but theoretically less reliable

    * Eye-Witness Testimony – Testimony from firsthand witnesses to an event. (Especially if there is a lack of rebuttal from the same area and time frame)

    * Embarrassing Testimony – Ex. A Pastor who told his congregation that he was too busy to visit a sick person last week. Then, later in the talk he let it slip that he had been playing golf on multiple occasions that week. Such a statement is embarrassing therefore, increases the reliability that such a statement was true.

    * Enemy Attestation - Gary Habermas and Michael Licona note that “If testimony affirming an event or saying is given by a source who does not sympathize with the person, message, or cause that profits from the account, we have an indication of authenticity.”

    So, if a person’s mother said that her child had integrity, one could claim the mother spoke out of bias for her child. But if a person’s enemy said something like - this person is an idiot, I don’t like him, but he’s not a liar. The claim of integrity would hold greater weight.

    There are at least 6 sources for Jesus that qualify as enemy attestation:

    1. Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15.44), c. 100AD.

    Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome

    2. Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18.3), c. 90AD.

    Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man...a doer of wonderful works—a teacher. when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

    3. Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a), c. 220AD but reports an earlier tradition.

    They hanged Yeshu on the Sabbath of the Passover....he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and lead them away from God.

    4. Mara Bar-Serapion, c. 73-100AD (Syrian and Stoic philosopher)

    What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished.

    5. Thallus (from Julius Africanus fragment), c. 52AD

    Thallus “wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time…Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun—unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died).”

    6. Acts of Pilate (from Justin Martyr, First Apology 35), Justin wrote in the mid 2nd century but records a text from the first-century AD.

    And the expression, ‘They pierced my hands and my feet,’ was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.

    7. I might also add the Nazareth Inscription (middle 1st Century) from Caesar which mentions the death penalty for anyone found moving sepulcher-sealing stones and stealing the body.
    This inscription was found in Nazareth.

    Now, where have we heard an account about a man from Nazareth who was placed in a tomb that was sealed with a big roll stone that was later found to be empty? Keep in mind that tomb raiders don't steal dead bodies... just the valuables that are frequently buried with them, making this imperial edict even more ridiculous if is wasn't about Jesus.

    So, just from enemy attestation sources, (not counting the Nazareth inscription) the historian can know the following:

    1) Jesus existed;

    2) Jesus was a teacher from Judea;

    3) Jesus was thought to have been wise;

    4) Jesus performed miracles, although attributed to sorcery by his adversaries;

    5) Jesus was crucified at the command of Pontius Pilate;

    6) Darkness surrounded the area at Jesus’ crucifixion;

    7) Jesus was crucified around the time of the Passover;

    8) One can assume from the information given that Jesus was buried;

    9) Jesus was believed to have been resurrected;

    10) and Jesus’ followers accepted suffering and death while still holding on to the belief of Jesus’ resurrection.

    From enemy attestation alone, one can know a great deal about the fundamentals of Jesus’ life.

    There are many other guides and lines of reasoning that historians use to establish the historicity of events. This is but a very small sampling

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