by truth_b_known 35 Replies latest watchtower bible
Sea Breeze, I don't see how your link about allegations about Carrier relates to the rest of the content of your post, thus why did you post that link?
It's called;
Argumentum ad hominem (argument directed at the person instead of the idea being debated). This is the error of
attacking the character
or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself. The most obvious example of this fallacy is when one debater maligns the character of another debater
When I met Carrier in person I told him that Christianity existed before the first century CE - before the time that Jesus supposedly lived on Earth. That is because of what I had read and because of what Carrier said in his lecture about the emergence of ideas that later became identified with Christianity. Carrier was surprised by that idea of mine. He then said that Christianity (at least as people commonly think of it today) came to be when Paul combined the various ideas and preached the "Christ crucified" doctrine.
He then said that Christianity (at least as people commonly think of it today) came to be when Paul combined the various ideas and preached the "Christ crucified" doctrine.
Disillusion jw see my post here;
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6221415232569344/my-gospel
Hi pistolpete, I agree with all or nearly all of what you posted on the other topic thread, about Paul's gospel being a different gospel. I had learned of much of that years ago. From the years of about 2000 - about 2009 (or possibly until later than 2009) I read the entire Bible (including the apocrypha), and studied the Bible, using only non-JW translations. I also studied with the aid of commentaries of 'Christendom', and evangelical books which are critical of WT teachings, and web pages promoting ex-Christian ideas. I also read and studied some of Bart Ehrman's books (I checked them out from the library). I thus knew of Paul speaking of what he called "my Gospel". What I didn't know however is that NWT instead uses the wording of "the good news I declare".
You posts at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6221415232569344/my-gospel make an excellent case for showing that prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE that Paul's version of Christianity competed with, and was significantly different from, the Christianity (or messianic Judaism) of the Torah keeping Jewish believers in Jesus.
Biblical scholars know there were Torah keeping Jews known as Nazarenes and those known as Ebionites who considered themselves followers of Jesus (but I am not sure if Jesus really existed as a historical person), but who also considered Paul/Saul as a false teacher and a corrupter of the teachings of Jesus the Nazarene.
I read that the Torah keeping Jews who accepted Jesus (in other words, those of the circumcision faction of Jesus' followers) nearly eventually out competed Paul's sect. But, after Jerusalem (which was the base of operations of Torah keeping followers of Jesus) fell in 70 CE and after if fell again after the defeat of the Bar Kokhba Revolt in Judea in 135 CE, the sect founded by Paul became the doctrinal victors of the early Jesus movement.
A number of atheists teaching the Christ myth theory (which I largely accept) say that the letters of Paul are the most reliable sources for determining the earliest teachings of Christianity, but I think that is primarily only the case for the Pauline sect of Christianity. I think it reveals little of the non-Pauline Torah keeping version of messianism based in belief in Jesus the Nazarene. I think the Gospels, the letter of the Hebrews, and possibly even the book of Revelation are much better sources for determining what the Torah keeping non-Pauline believers in Jesus (and gentile Greek speaking Proselytes [who at least kept the Noahide Laws] to such) believed in.
Regarding Revelation being a possible witness to non-Pauline Torah keeping Jewish believers in Jesus, see Revelation 14:12.
I suspect that most of the pre-Pauline believers in Jesus were Greek speaking (instead of predominately Hebrew or Aramaic speaking) believers in Jesus. That is partly because that which are extant of what are called the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Gospel of the Nazarenes, and the Gospel of the Ebionites are in Greek. [But all of the extant copies of these might be translations from Hebrew into Greek, or possibly even concoctions by Greek church 'fathers'.] Another reason is that a number of Christian ideas in the NT seem to be dependent upon the wording of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures.
The wording of the Septuagint in some verses allows for a larger range of interpretation of the scriptures than does the wording of the Hebrew text, and as a result allows more for some uniquely Christian interpretations of the pre-Christian Jewish scriptures. For one example, the name YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) becomes Kyrios (Lord) in the Greek text. Likewise the Hebrew word Elohim (which has a range of meanings, including 'angels') becomes theoús (gods) in the Greek text.
Correection: I should have said the following. "Likewise the Hebrew word Elohim (which has a range of meanings, including 'God', 'god', 'gods', 'angels', 'godlike beings', and 'judges') sometimes becomes theoí/theoús (gods) in the Greek text (as in John 10:34-35) [see also the annotation to John 10:34 in the NAB 1991 edition of Bible, a Catholic Bible], though most of the time it becomes theos (God/god)."
Instead of saying "Likewise the Hebrew word Elohim ..." I probably should have said 'In contrast the Hebrew word Elohim ...".
Years ago (probably before I became an atheist) I read sections of the some of the books of Robert Eisenman (a biblical scholar, historian, and archaeologist), including the book called James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls. I think I formerly owned a copy of that book. I also read some articles by biblical scholar James Tabor. At https://jamestabor.com/ebionites-nazarenes-tracking-the-original-followers-of-jesus/ James Tabor as an article called "Ebionites & Nazarenes: Tracking the Original Followers of Jesus".
Regarding Robert Eisenman's book called James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Brother_of_Jesus_(book) says the following.
"The central claim is that Jewish Christianity emerged from the Zadokites, a messianic, priestly, ultra-fundamentalist sect, making them indivisible from the milieu of contemporary movements like the Essenes, Zealots, Nazoreans, Nazirites, Ebionites, Elchasites, Sabeans, Mandaeans, etc.
In this scenario, the figure of Jesus at first did not have the central importance that it later acquired. The canonical Twelve Apostles were no more than an artificially expanded replacement for the smaller circle of brothers of Jesus. After his crucifixion one of his brothers, James the Just took his place as the leader of this party, besides other factions loyal to Jesus (Ebionites) and to John the Baptist (Mandaeans). The central triad of the early Jerusalem Church will be composed by James, Peter, and John the Apostle. According to Eisenman, James was an important religious figure in his own right."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Eisenman says the following.
'As far as Eisenman is concerned, James the Just, the individual Paul actually refers to as either "brother of Jesus" or "the brother of the Lord",[59] is the historical character who exhibits the most in common with "the Teacher of Righteousness" pictured at Qumran and he considers that these events are the ones vividly portrayed in the Habakkuk Commentary. Historically speaking, it is this character who led the "Opposition Movement", including Essenes, Zealots, Sicarii, and/or Nazoreans – even Ebionites – and who, as “Zaddik" (צדיק), i. e., "the Zaddik of the Opposition Movement", about whom all these groups revolved until his death at the hands of the High Priest Ananus ben Ananus in 62 CE as described both in Josephus and Early Church literature.[60] For him, the popularity of James and the illegality of the manner of his death at the hands of the Herodians, establishment High Priesthood, and Pharisees in 62 CE set the stage for and possibly even triggered the First Jewish Revolt against Rome in 66–73 CE – to say nothing of the fire in Rome, not long afterwards which, aside from his probably having set it himself,[dubious – discuss][citation needed] Nero was reported to have blamed on "Christians".'
James Tabor along with Simcha Jacobovici has a book which I think I never learned of until today, namely The Jesus Discovery: The New Archaeological Find that Reveals the Birth of Christianity. Regarding the discovery mentioned in the book see https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/798650 . That website says the following about an inscription which was found (boldface is mine).
'There are engravings on five of the seven ossuaries: an enigmatic symbol on ossuary 2 (possibly reading Yod Heh Vav Heh or "Yahweh" in stylized letters that can be read as Greek or Hebrew, though the team is uncertain); an inscription reading "MARA" in Greek letters (which Tabor translates as the feminine form of "lord" or "master" in Aramaic) on ossuary 3; an indecipherable word in Greek letters on ossuary 4 (possibly a name beginning with "JO…"); the remarkable four-line Greek inscription on ossuary 5; and finally, and most importantly, a series of images on ossuary 6, including the large image of a fish with a figure seeming to come out of its mouth.
... the four-line Greek inscription contains some kind of statement of resurrection faith.
Tabor noted that the epitaph's complete and final translation is uncertain. The first three lines are clear, but the last line, consisting of three Greek letters, is less sure, yielding several possible translations: "O Divine Jehovah, raise up, raise up," or "The Divine Jehovah raises up to the Holy Place," or "The Divine Jehovah raises up from [the dead]."
"This inscription has something to do with resurrection of the dead, either of the deceased in the ossuary, or perhaps, given the Jonah image nearby, an expression of faith in Jesus' resurrection," Tabor said.
