Great post and well handled! It's more fruitful to trim an oleander bush (because they are not only poisonous, but grow really fast) than to try to trim the beliefs of a JW zealot (who's beliefs never grow at all, yet are just as poisonous).
My Personal Invitation to the Celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal
by TMS 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jwfacts
Great post that I wish everyone could read and appreciate. After years of preaching, how many of us ever convinced anyone that their Christian beliefs are wrong, so why think that it is going to be likely that a conversation with a JW will have them agreeing that you are right and they should leave the organisation. It still comes as a surprise that she was so unaffected as to still press for you to come to the memorial after all that.
Still, this conversation may plant a seed that at some later point has an affect.
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ToesUp
TMS
Great job explaining things to her. The same outcome as always with a JW....."None of this remotely fazed her." Crazy!
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TMS
Overall, I think I was very gentle. After all, I don't really have any emotional stake in whether or not she continues in the religion. I'm sort of past that. When I spot a group of JWs in a neighborhood, no anger wells up inside me. Instead, I find myself noticing their clothing, trying to see if there is any sense of urgency about them or if any young ones are tagging along, wishing they were on a Little League ball field.
If any of my words stung, it was when I accidentally revealed my last name. She asked if I was related to so-and-so, a "brother" in her congregation. "Yes, that's my younger brother," I said wistfully. "I'm very surprised he's still in the religion. I thought he was smarter than that."
I meant that. My brother was removed as an elder during his divorce about 25 years ago. He lived sort of a double life after that for a number of years, smoking cigars, doing basically what he wanted to do while still attending meetings, etc. I always assumed he'd seen through the bullshit and was just going through the motions to hold his family together and keep his friends. Not so. He's back to a fully functioning JW. I've even heard "what wonderful talks he gives." Lol.
Likely, he heard her version of our conversation at the Kingdom Hall that afternoon.
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Stirred
I can understand her outward appearance. She has on her witness suit of armor. She may very well ponder these things. I'd bet money on it. Why? Because she tarried so long in conversation, showed concern as to why you were negatively affected versus just writing you off and moving on....she really wanted to know in order to help but also perhaps curiosity was growing inyour conversation. If she was aware of facts, she may be in the middle numb point of trying to push off these thoughts or is dealing with inner conflicts with the oft used logic that we should wait in Jehovah to handle this...or that we dont know all the facts and no doubt the medianis blowing this up.
This will ring in her mind no doubt on a regular basis. A neighbor brought out one simole question to me a couple years back when I was feeling already stressed by issues in the workings of the JW culture....he pegged it. I could not disagree or really answer at the time. His comment and question rang in my head regularly till one day I started taking steps to clear my conscience of any dissonance.
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Hadriel
The Borg would say "resistance is futile".
...but when it comes to Witnesses it is better said:
"persistence is futile"
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Stirred
Staying calm, humbly pointing out facts, showing real friendship, care and concern, and being a truly "good neighbor" all helped me to wake up. So I argue it is not futile at all.
Aggression and disrespectful talk would turn me off. However, asking good questions, especially ones that highlighted non-biblical rules helped me very much.
I actually thanked my neighbor.
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steve2
TMS, you sound like the kind of 'householder' I would have had mixed feelings about when I went door-to-door: I would have appreciated the intelligent, orderly exchange, but also "feel" rattled by the information (and not show it, of course) and verbalize the official answers in a compised, dignified manner.
So, who knows what was going on in this lovely lady's mind?
I would not say your exchange was fruitless. You conducted yourself in an intelligent, thoughtful and dignified manner with the ability to still be frank and "wise" about JWs thinking patterns.
Having an ability to express yourself is to be valued in contrast to individuals who have poor emotion regulation and use anger and resentment to convey their message. And the Witnesses lap up the display and go away convinced exJWs are mentally unhinged.
This lady will not be able to dismiss so readily her exchange with you. I suspect there could be a lot more going on in her mind than her composed exterior suggested.
I wished I had met someone like you when I was going door to door many years ago.
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TMS
Not that I've had many of these conversations, but. . . . a few years ago, a terrible tsunami wave killed hundreds in the far east. News reports indicated that indigenous people, relying on oral tradition had noticed warning signs of the danger and taken to higher ground.
About that time, I saw a man, about 35 or so, walking toward my door, accompanied by his 11 or 12 year old son. On that occasion I did not identify myself as a former JW. I fawned over the man's son a bit and then listened to the start of his presentation.
"You call your god Jehovah, right?" I asked.
"Yes, God's name is Jehovah," he responded, offering to show it to me in the Bible. I think he was flipping to Psalms 83:18 before I stopped him.
"Ok, so that book says that we are God or Jehovah's children, right?"
"Yes, we are God's children," he agreed.
"So, why," I asked, "did God not warn hundreds of his children that a tsunami was coming? He saw it coming, didn't he? Is there a reason he simply chose to watch them all die?"
He stood there thinking with no immediate response.
Then I addressed him by his first name which I now forget. "If you, as a father, had simply watched your son die, doing nothing to protect him or warn him, how would that be viewed by the authorities? Would you not be guilty of child abuse?"
The Witness man simply said "I have no answer for that. Thank you, sir, for your time."
From time to time I think about that man and his son. The son would likely now be well into his teenage years.
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steve2
A well-composed question is hard to shake off, even if there is not much going on upstairs!