If Trump isn't a Christian, does that then mean that left-wing people will be more inclined to embrace him?
Left-wing people are often anti-Christian, too.
*runs away after poking hornet's nest*
The Pope Tells Trump He's Not A Christian
by minimus 46 Replies latest jw friends
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StephaneLaliberte
On a Canadian radio station, I heard that he could win the primaries due to the division between the alternative candidates. This could mean that even if 70% of the people don't want him, he could still be elected.
For instance:
29% Cruz
28% Robio
8% Kasich
3% Carson
30% Donald trump!I think the election process is flawed.
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LoveUniHateExams
As mentioned previously, the walls around the Vatican ..... were possibly meant to keep out Muslim invaders in the Middle Ages.
Perhaps Trump and The Pope have more in common than first thought ...
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Heaven
The Pope says Trump isn't Christian yet it was this very same Pope who said if people criticize religion they have to expect to get punched. That doesn't sound Christian to me either.
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LoveUniHateExams
The Pope says Trump isn't Christian yet it was this very same Pope who said if people criticize religion they have to expect to get punched. That doesn't sound Christian to me either
That's exactly what the Jay Dubyas would say.
WTF is going on here?
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baker
The Pope is the Catholic,s governing body, infallible
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Heaven
LoveUni said: The Pope says Trump isn't Christian yet it was this very same Pope who said if people criticize religion they have to expect to get punched. That doesn't sound Christian to me either
That's exactly what the Jay Dubyas would say.
WTF is going on here?
It is my understanding that 'turning the other cheek' is Christian, not retaliation. However, what I also know is that for every single person and every single 'Christian' religion, the term and definition of 'Christian' appears to be an ever changing and fluid one depending on circumstances. The ever shifting sands of religion/Christianity make me nauseous.
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David_Jay
I don't believe anyone is necessarily above enduring criticism. But I do think it is time to put a well-worn and incorrect Watchtower teaching to rest about the Pope that baker brought up.
Catholics do not teach or believe the pope is infallible. Pope=infallible, that is the Watchtower at its most ignorant, uneducated height.
What the Catholic Church teaches is that when a doctrine of faith is under question and all the research is done for and against an issue, the pope can declare the result in favor of the doctrine never being questionable again.
This means the pope can declare a doctrine once under debate as dogma, namely that the DOCTRINE is infallible. But several things need to be in play for this to happen.
1. The questionable doctrine must be put to the test with not merely clergy but especially the laity being questioned regarding their understanding of the issues involved.
2. The doctrine cannot be newly invented by anyone, including a pope. The question can only involve that which has been (or believed to have been) embraced as doctrine since the beginning of the Church.
3. The pope and/or college of cardinals working in unison with the pope can only declare the doctrine as dogma or infallible in accordance with the evidence presented.
Only twice in 2000 years have popes ever made such formal statements regarding doctrine. Unlike the Governing Body, declaring a doctrine as infallible dogma requires the laity to be involved, and both dogmatic pronouncements sided with the view of the laity over what many scholars believed when they were made.
That is not nothing like the Governing Body and the way it does things and invents unquestionable doctrine in closed sessions.
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David_Jay
But to add to the direct conversation I must add that both sides now agree that the Pope was neither getting involved in politics nor directly speaking about Donald Trump.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/19/politics/donald-trump-pope-francis/
Besides wanting to beat a dead horse which is neither dead nor a horse, whatever our personal feelings about the Catholic Church might be they aren't truth if only based on emotion or hearsay. We can't call for those of the Watchtower to be critical thinkers and open to change of their views when we cannot or do not do the same.
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nonjwspouse
I expect flaming with this post. it comes with the territory of political discussion. I get that.
The Vatican has walls for protection against outside dangers. The intent for a wall, physical and governmental, wall on the Mexican border is for the same reason. Trump doesn't want to stop immigration, he wants to stop dangerous, uncontrolled crossing of the borders. This is one area the federal government has direct responsibility to enforce and direct. To protect our borders.
Currently the federal government is doing NOTHING to protect these borders. This is dangerous to our entire country. The border with Mexico is so incredibly unprotected it is a joke.
Now, I am not saying I agree with all of Trumps ideas. But this one has merit. it is not meant to always keep every one out. it is meant to CONTROL the process. A process the government has shown complete inability to control.
Walls work. Albeit most that are mentioned, the Great Wall of China, Berlin Wall..... have been to keep people IN. To keep them imprisoned in a country, and not the other way around as a wall with Mexico would be. The wall with Mexico it is protect the influx of possible enemies, criminals, terrorists, along with those just wanting in for a better life.
The border with Canada is also a large concern. This too needs much better protection, though the crossing over is minute compared to Mexico, it absolutely needs the same attention
I also believe the Pope has been given a misrepresented sob story by the Mexican government. I feel the Pope is misled by the self-serving Enrique Peña Nieto ( America treats the immigrants , even those illegally here, sometimes with better resources than the citizens of America.)Many Churches etc. provide lots of support for these same people outside what the government provides. It is the historical American way.
It is at Mexico's better interest to have those who are in need to flee to the USA to receive monetary help so that Mexico is not responsible for them anymore. It is at Mexico's best interest for criminals to come to, or return to the USA for the USA to deal with and pay for.
I disliked the Pope's comment and hope he clarifies when presented with more truthful information. I agree it is unchristian ( and inhuman) to turn away those in need. However, the scope of this problem is more than that, and the USA has always been the country to accepts those in need more than any other country in the world AND STILL IS.
Trump's approach grates on many peoples acceptable politically correct speech. ( Me too sometimes, who isn't?) But if you can get beyond that emotional reaction to how he says things, and think in logical terms, many times what he is saying rings true, and does make sense.Hence his enormous popularity. I would not have picked him as a voice of the people, he can be hard too listed to without cringing sometimes. But in history some of our greater leaders also made people cringe with their choice of words. This is not a new thing, but it is something new to the immediate, all news all the time, immediate view, information age generation.
The entire claim of sending home each and every undocumented immigrant, children and all, is pretty rough and creditworthy. I don't find a clear logical place in my mind for that. Though, if there is a plan to immediately process and provide temporary citizenship those who have been here, with records of abiding the laws, paying taxes, not here receiving welfare without working, those how are working and paying taxes and contributing ( including caring for their elders or other family member who are not working) . All these thing taken into consideration are important. Do we even know what that plan is of Trump? I have not heard specifics and want to hear them.Temporary citizenship should be available due to the utter and complete lack of responsibility of our federal government to do the main job of protecting the borders and processing immigrants for so VERY long. Those waiting to gain legal status that HAVE been going by the rules MUST be fast tracked ( with complete vetting) at this point to be the first to gain full citizenship ahead of those who illegally crossed the border, (but should having temporary citizenship). Those illegally crossng must be second in line in this process.
I do know this fluid border MUST STOP because it is placing great danger, and huge financial burden on the working class Americans in our country. There are no other countries that have successfully used a fluid, uncontrolled border system without major problems in their economy and safety.
We think of a Wall as oppressive and humanitarian. Yes , a wall to keep people from leaving a county is inhumane and oppressive. A difficult to cross constructed wall to protect the influx of undocumented people is NOT oppressive, it is a rational, safe, and humane way to keep our borders protected.
America does want immigrants who are fleeing oppression, who will prove to work for their needs, who will take care of their family, who will not join gangs or otherwise cause crime against others.
America has historically taken in people who are in severe medical need of care and Drs will treat them, sometimes forgoing sending the bills. I personally know of one such Dr with an immigrant needing stomach cancer surgery. The Dr waived the fees. THIS is what America is about. Not what the Pope was mislead to believing by Enrique Peña Nieto.
Remember, the last words of the Pope after hearing the Mexican president's explanation, " If this is what Trump is doing , I don't know, but this is wrong and unchristian" . The Mexican president told a convenient partial truth, leaving out the inconvenient parts. Donald Trump is of the Christian faith, and he has not ever shown otherwise. He supports many charities, employs extreme numbers of people, pays good wages and benefits, and has a history of giving to others. That IS the claimed Christian ideal.