I always like Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future. Of course, the problem with any utopia is that human nature tends to focus on the self and material/physical things and therefor make said utopia unobtainable.
"I'm As Mad as Hell - and I'm not going to take it anymore" (First Principles)
by Terry 19 Replies latest jw friends
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Finkelstein
DEMOCRACY: Two wolves and a sheep voting on 'what's for lunch
Yep , kind of like a husband and wife debating what the family is to do, eventually one of them is successful and the rest of the family is forced to go along, an effected equilibrium of good and the not so good.
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LoveUniHateExams
DEMOCRACY: Two wolves and a sheep voting on 'what's for lunch' -ah yes, aka 'the tyranny of the majority' stance.
Except that isn't how it always is.
Here in the UK, former PM David Cameron passed the same-sex marriage bill without asking the UK electorate to vote one way or the other in a referendum on it.
This is fine, because why should the tyranny of the majority get to decide how consenting adults live their lives?
Democracy is the best thing we have.
Ken Livingstone (a spiv, chancer and deranged commie) has gone on record saying that 'if voting changed anything, parliament would abolish it'.
Well, this isn't quite true (see Brexit and the 2019 general election).
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Terry
I'm still hoping that you might begin to even hint at an alternative Terry.
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Cofty -
Think of it this way:
We all die. What's the alternative? Resurrection to heaven or paradise?
You are calling for the role of RELIGION which is to create an alternative to reality itself.That escape /alternative is, as Willy Wonka sang, "Pure Imagination."
There IS NO ALTERNATIVE to reality!
Now there is pragmatism for you.
Quack medicine cures are an alternative to chemotherapy and when
you are desperate and dying --why wouldn't you try coffee enemas?
Seriously Cofty ...
Getting a small group to agree on something is easy peasy.
But it is all those "other" small groups which spoil the party.
Liberal vs Conservative
House of Commons vs Parliament
Democrat >Social Justice Democrat
Republican > Tea Party
Judaism >Zionist
Christian >Catholic >Protestant > Orthodox > Cults
Islam >Sunni > Shia > Wahabi
and don't forget:- Sunni Hanafi.
- Sunni Maliki.
- Sunni Shafi'i.
- Sunni Hanbali.
- Shi'i Imāmī (followers of the Ja'fari jurisprudence)
- Shi'i Zaydi.
- Khariji Ibadi.
- Sunni Ẓāhirī
Bolshevik / Mensheviks / Monarchy
... - And the beat goes on ...
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THE VERY BEST THING a Western Democracy can hope for is a slow
rot into corruption by the Oligarchy.
Well - it is here!
Now what?
Enough common people must arise in an insurrection to overthrow that Power Cabal.
In doing it - the economy will crash.
Is that really an ALTERNATIVE? Sure but burning the barn to get rid of rats
is bad for the environment :)
ALTERNATIVES aren't as beautiful as make-believe solutions.
The current model in the U.S.A. is fake elections.
______________Pure Imagination
Hold your breath
Make a wish count to threeCome with me and you'll be
In a world of pure imagination
Take a look and you'll see
Into your imaginationWe'll begin with a spin
Traveling in the world of my creation
What we'll see will defy explanationIf you want to view paradise
Simply look around and view it
Anything you want to, do it
Wanna change the world?
There's nothing to itThere is no life I know
To compare with pure imagination
Living there, you'll be free
If you truly wish to beIf you want to view…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVi3-PrQ0pY -
Finkelstein
I support your thinking Terry
In regards to the American political system right now , Trump and his chosen administration have been an Autocratic Oligarchy, where the rich business people in the country are getting the most advantages to his policies.
Oh that's right he is one those rich business people and the people who pay for his private resorts as well.
It might be a case of the rich helping the rich so that they can sustain being the rich.
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cofty
You are calling for the role of RELIGION which is to create an alternative to reality itself.
No I'm not calling for anything. I think liberal democracy is as good as it gets or ever will be.
I have still not got the first clue what your answer is Terry.
I think you could condense this entire thread into three words - 'democracy is imperfect'.
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Terry
cofty: I think you could condense this entire thread into three words - 'democracy is imperfect'.
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Democracy in America is corrupt. That's a wee bit more precise and alarming.
The 'ho-hum' malaise is also part of the emergency.
Rigged elections, false media reporting, and the buy-out of the political establishment (by the Oligarchy) requires action on the part of the constituency.
All over the world, a despised and displaced middle class has resorted
to bizarre, flailing choices (Trump and Brexit, for instance) and the rift
between the 'basket of deplorables' and the Elite is an erupting pustule of
of volcanic heat and no light.
Not as pithy as your synopsis, Cofty - but more accurate. -
cofty
Brexit is not bizarre or 'flailing'. It was a rational decision to leave a misguided supranational political project. It was massively supported by the working class. The middle class largely voted remain. The political establishment was defeated by the masses, not just by the vote but by three years of the elite trying, and failing, to reverse the popular vote.
Liberal democracy 1 - 0 Political Elite
But what about my question. Since you have contempt for democracy, how do we get to this state that you call 'how things ought to be', and what would that state look like?
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Terry
cofty:
Since you have contempt for democracy, how do we get to this state that you call 'how things ought to be', and what would that state look like?
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Wrong.
I have contempt for CORRUPTION of Democracy in the same way bedbugs in Luxury Hotels is unacceptable.
I think you are disingenuously misreading because I've been excruciatingly clear.
Democracy with fair elections, neutral Media, and the absence of money (i.e. oligarch puppeteers) works great because THE PEOPLE can access reform and credible information to analyze what sort of leadership and policies they are asking for.
There is a movie embodying the spirit of what I'm saying.
Watch the movie and see what I mean by "ought to be".
Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jit3YhGx5pU -
cofty
Me - 'Since you have contempt for democracy, how do we get to this state that you call 'how things ought to be', and what would that state look like?'
Terry - 'Wrong. I have contempt for CORRUPTION of Democracy ... I think you are disingenuously misreading because I've been excruciatingly clear.'
<sarcasm>Well I can't imagine where that misunderstanding came from</sarcasm>
- As far as secular politics and democratic elections, I don't see them as "real" but only a sop to masses
- DEMOCRACY: Two wolves and a sheep voting on 'what's for lunch'
- THE VERY BEST THING a Western Democracy can hope for is a slow rot into corruption by the Oligarchy.