Does Morality Exist?

by Fisherman 92 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Saename
    Saename
    Aren't those laws? Doesn't morality have to do with sexual conduct, deception and debauchery (personal conduct)in every society?

    Morality is the set of principles that determines the behaviour of rational, conscious agents to be either right or wrong/good or bad. As such, it is not limited to sexual conduct, deception, and debauchery (although it is not immediately clear to me why debauchery, defined as "excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures," could ever be considered immoral so long as it does no harm to non-consenting, non-involved individuals. It would surely be irresponsible in many, if not most or even all, cases, but I can't see the moral aspect of it.)

    Law is quite similar in this that it's defined as the set of a nation's rules which imposes upon its citizens a regulation of their (the citizens') actions. However, it's also different because we do not legislate based on morality. While it may be immoral to cheat on one's spouse, it is not illegal. When it comes to things like murder, rape, and theft, they happen to be both immoral and illegal.

    So, well- being for who?

    In a most general sense, when we talk about morality, we are concerned with the well-being of conscious creatures with the primary focus on human beings. But which human beings? We are of course concerned with the well-being of human beings who are not the agents of the given actions which are considered either moral or immoral. So for example, let's say that while you're walking by a lake, you see that there is a woman who fell into the lake, cannot swim, and is drowning. While it is not your moral obligation to save her (because you are not required to risk your own life for her sake), if you decided to help her and succeeded in doing so, that would be considered a moral action. (Moral right and moral obligation aren't the same thing. Something can be moral, but it doesn't have to be a moral obligation.)

    But let's reverse the roles. Let's say that you are the one who fell into the lake, and that you are the one who cannot swim. As a result, you're drowning. If you succeeded in somehow saving yourself, would that be morally right of you? It would be morally neutral because you're saving yourself. It would be amoral. You're the agent. When deciding the moral value of an action, we always exclude the agent.

    So let's connect that to the example you gave earlier:

    Also, exploitation of human beings all over the world so that countries like the US, can prosper.

    There are three parties here which we need to list. Firstly, there are the people who are being exploited. Let's say they are the black slaves in the US. Then, there are the people who are exploiting them. Let's call them the agents. Lastly, there are the people for whose sake the agents are exploiting the black slaves. Let's called them the public. So whose well-being do we care about in order to determine whether the exploitation of black slaves is moral or immoral? As a general rule, we exclude the agents. So now we're facing a moral dilemma. Would we be morally justified to exploit the black slaves for the sake of the public?

    There are a lot of arguments that can be made here, but in general, this would have a lot to do with the axiom of bodily autonomy that I've already mentioned before. People have a right to bodily autonomy, but they do not have the right to infringe upon other people's right to bodily autonomy unless they have specifically denied themselves this right by knowingly attempting to diminish the well-being of other people. (There are arguments that do in fact demonstrate objectively that we shouldn't have this right by looking at the consequences of not having this right vs. having it, but I've already written a lot, and it's getting late...)

    Edit: Oh, and about this:

    If morality exists, I want to see proof.

    You said that you've read all of the posts on this thread already. Have you actually? Because I dealt with that question already. It depends on what kind of morality you're talking about. Does it exist in the sense that rational agents have a concept of morality? Well, sure, of course it does exist in this sense. We know that there is such a thing as morality because people hold moral values. Or are you talking about subjective vs. objective vs. absolute morality, and which one exists? Then that's also something I already answered. (Subjective foundation which is well-being + the objective fact that consequences of our actions affect our well-being. It's subjective in the rigorously philosophical sense, like medicine is subjective, but it is objective "for all intents and purposes" because everyone seems to agree that well-being is the foundation of morality—i.e., whenever they talk about morality, they refer to well-being.)

  • cofty
    cofty

    Fisherman - Your question is a lot like asking "does health exist?"

  • cofty
    cofty
    People have a right to bodily autonomy - Saename

    Serious question - Says who?

  • pale.emperor
    pale.emperor

    I think religion tries to have the monopoly on morality. I have my own morality and i see some very immoral things that YHWH did in the bible. If he were a human being on earth he'd be worse that Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler.

    However, there are things that many religions called immoral that i personally have no problem with.

    Perhaps there's an evolutionary answer for this, protecting myself and my genes and my offspring obviously ensures the survival of my genes. The means of doing so may be considered immoral by some people.

    Killing someone who's trying to kill me? I say moral. Bible says immoral.

    Stoning someone to death for picking up sticks on Saturday? I say immoral. Bible says moral.

    We certainly shouldn't be getting our morals from the Bible, Quran or L Ron Hubbard.

  • Saename
    Saename
    cofty - Serious question - Says who?

    Are you saying that you don't believe we have the right to bodily autonomy, or is it just a question to start a conversation between two people who agree on the conclusions but not necessarily on some of the premises/arguments?

    I have no problem with discussing this with you, but I first need to know why exactly you're asking. Also, are you asking about the who—the agent(s)—or about the why? Because if you're asking about the who, then I may just as well end this conversation right now by responding that it is we who grant ourselves this right. Who else would it be if, insofar as we know, we're the only rational agents to entertain the idea of granting a right?

  • redvip2000
    redvip2000
    Redvip200 - I'm curious about what you are basing that on. Do you really believe all moral statements are simply social constructs?

    I don't believe all moral norms are social constructs. I do think many are innate. Things like not killing another human or stealing are "hardwired" in our brains, because they were useful in the way we evolved.

    Perhaps I shouldn't say it's all a social construct. Though I do think many are developed through years of ethical discussion and argument, and those are constructed.

  • Saename
    Saename
    By the way, cofty, I'd like to know why you say that morality isn't a social construct. And while we're at it, what do you mean? Do you mean that even foundationally it's not a social construct, or do you mean that not all of it is a social construct, or do you just think that saying it is a social construct diminishes its value?
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    Your question is a lot like asking "does health exist?"

    Health is the opposite of disease. Some diseases are heart disease, kidney, infectious, autoimmune, poor eye vision, genetic disorders, chronic pain, broken limb, depression, etc.

    So, the state of unhealth exists and health is the opposite of this. Does every human suffer from some health problem even in the tiny least? Yes. Some are in excellent health, some in good health, and some in poor health but no one is in 100 percent perfect health. But it can be shown what health is not. When does a person have a healthy kidney? When it functions within acceptable parameters. When is a person healthy? When he functions within acceptable parameters.


  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    so long as it does no harm to non-consenting, non-involved individuals.

    Says who? Is self preservation immoral when it involves harming other creatures?

    In a most general sense, when we talk about morality, we are concerned with the well-being of conscious creatures with the primary focus on human beings.

    Well-being of others is governed by laws, concerns are not.

    Morality is the set of principles that determines the behaviour of rational, conscious agents to be either right or wrong/good or bad.

    Do whatever you like or what you have been conditioned to feel, or what you inherently feel by nature or what is dictated by a governing body. Which which is which? Hitler's morality was concerned for the well-being of the German people and he was doing quite well. The Europeans also were concerned about wellbeing when they took the land from the Indians. They suceeded and he US is a prosperous nation where morality means do whatever the heck you like -just don't break the law.

  • TD
    TD

    Fisherman

    Aren't those laws?

    Sometimes.

    A simple card game is a social construct in the sense that we both agree on the significance of the various cards and the rules with which they should be played.

    Or take gender for example. Biological gender is real in the physical sense, but the genderization of clothing items like hats and shoes is entirely a social construct.


    Doesn't morality have to do with sexual conduct, deception and debauchery (personal conduct) in every society?

    Morality covers those things and much more, especially when you get into ethics, which is considered to be the formal language of morality.

    You seem to be driving at something more mercurial than that though (?)

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