Does Morality Exist? (page 8)

konceptual99

Please explain things to me in simple concrete terms versus abstract concepts and illustrations, doing so will help me understand faster.

I seem to remember Sam, aka Kate Wild, approaching debate in exactly the same way.

Fisherman

Law is determined by any standard the country wishes to use.

Theft, Murder, Rape laws exist in every country are about well being.

Sex laws, drunk in public, indecent exposure like laws are also legislated depending on the country not based on any arbitrary standard but according to what is accepted as decent by a country or state.

I can't see how you're being immoral.

As it relates to any conduct sexual or otherwise, you say it is not immoral if it causes no harm to other conscious beings.

You also say that conduct is immoral when it harms other conscious beings.

I have shown that legislation in every country on earth governs human actions that affect others.

You say that morality exists because you feel concerned about harm to others whether or not legislation governs such action. And you also feel that concern whether or not the law says it is legal or society says it is acceptable. Is that your proof that morality exists?

Fisherman

Saename, there is lot posted for me to think about. I am focusing on your posts. I posted a lot of feelings but I have to read and consider everything you wrote.

jp1692

Yes it does. You raised the question so you need to prove it doesn't.

Saename

Theft, Murder, Rape laws exist in every country are about well being.

Yeah, and in some other countries there also exist laws which allow you to kill your daughter because she was raped. It's called "honour killing." Is that well-being too, or are they using their own arbitrary standard?

I have shown that legislation in every country on earth governs human actions that affect others.

No, they don't. In Canada, we don't legislate cheating, to name just one example. Cheating affects others, does it not? It's not illegal in Canada. It is illegal in some Middle-Eastern countries. Why's that? Because they legislate based on Islamic dogma.

You say that morality exists because you feel concerned about harm to others whether or not legislation governs such action. And you also feel that concern whether or not the law says it is legal or society says it is acceptable. Is that your proof that morality exists?

What you just said doesn't make any goddamn sense, especially the second sentence.

I'm not sure whether you've read the entirety of my comments. I already explained to you that it is an illegitimate question to ask whether morality exists or not. You refuse to accept that, either because you're too ignorant, or you simply didn't fully read what I wrote.

You keep talking about law as if it were in any way relevant to what we're discussing. IT'S NOT. I'm done talking to you because it's just way too frustrating. Take a few courses on logic and ethics; maybe that'll help you to think critically and logically about these topics. For now, you're spouting nonsense.

Fisherman

Saename,

You say that morality exists because you feel that it is wrong to harm others whether or not legislation governs such action. And you also feel that it is wrong to harm others whether or not the law says it is legal to do so or society says it is acceptable, Hitler for example. You also said that saving someone from harm ( considering the risk) is the moral thing to do. You also said that morality should be based upon whether or not actions harms others. You believe that morality is a "social construct." That is all you said.

Yeah, and in some other countries there also exist laws which allow you to kill your daughter because she was raped. It's called "honour killing." Is that well-being too, or are they using their own arbitrary standard?

Laws don't "allow". They proscribe or compel. The honor killing is probably one of your social constructs.

No, they don't. In Canada, we don't legislate cheating,

Depends on how you personally are defining cheating; If you mean fraud, it is a crime in Canada too. Cheating is a lesser form of fraud, and depending on the cheating, an exam for example, it is punishable.

You stated earlier that my belief that tattoos are wrong are based upon religious feelings and deep emotional feelings. You are wrong, a lot of non religious people feel the same way I do and my view is not based upon emotions or religion. I think that the person with tattoos is the one with emotional issues. I think you are wrong.

i can't address every wrong statement that you have made on this thread but saying that you have shown that morality exists and getting upset doesn't show that it does.

I never said that morality does not exist. I only said you did not prove that it does. Show me please where you have shown that it does. Stop getting nervous.

People base right and wrong on what they believe personally and emotionally based on past experience and on future consequences . Will a person avoid injuring someone or save someone from injury, or help someone out of empathy and compassion - a non agent - Yes, it is the human thing to do based on love. Other than that, people will do whatever they feel they can can get away with namely punishment from God or the law or getting caught.

Let's say that you say that cheating is not moral. I have a Medical Degree in my country. I am a qualified surgeon. I go to Canada. I have to pass exams there that are designed to make foreign doctors fail and a million other requirements impossible to meet - maybe in 4 years. Is it moral for me to cheat if I can get away with it? Or are the exams and qualification standards unfair?

Xanthippe

I think you're talking about an ultimate standard of morality, like absolute goodness as opposed to total evil. As if such a standard was founded in the universe somewhere before we even existed. That's from your religious beliefs I think.

Morality is about not causing harm to conscious beings but over time we've had to continually change what that means as we've grown in our understanding. There isn't an absolute standard of morality, only what works. What works for us probably wouldn't work for life on another planet with totally different needs.

Fisherman

People don't harm other conscious beings and help and assist other conscious being- that are "non- agents"- not because it is the moral thing to do but because of human feeling, compassion, empathy, love. Such human feelings are not standards. People will do those things based on human feeling.

Lets consider "morality" from what the Bible says and I am not saying that's morality. The word morality is used in the Bible aprox. 99 percent of the time in the context of sexual immorality, that's it. And according to Saename, such consentual conduct is not harming anyone.

In the US, it is too risky to try to help someone besides giving him a couple of bucks because you can get sued. Let's say you are on the train and you see what you believe is someone getting robbed and you intervene and for some reason the person is injured, you can be held legally responsible, or maybe they will implicate you as part of the robbery, or maybe what you believe is a robbery is not a robbery at all but part of a bigger picture between the two people and you wind up helping the wrong person.

If morality exists then the morality I see is mostly survival and not getting caught and that's if you want to call that morality. Well-being is based on human nature not social construct.

Saename

Jesus f*cking Christ. Fisherman, you are strawmaning me, and you are making so many logical fallacies that I no longer care to point them out. You are also ignoring the fact that whether morality exists is an illegitimate question to ask. This is the fourth time I say it.

Please take a course on logic and ethics because you are incapable of understanding me. Having this type of education will allow you to better understand philosophical language.

The reason I am ending our discussion is not merely because I feel angry. It's because you are ignoring what I say. The fact that I had to tell you four times that whether morality exists is an illegitimate question to ask demonstrates that you do not care about whatever information I present to you.

You can have the last word if you care to.

cofty

Fishy always needs to have the last word. It's frustrating when that last word completely misrepresents your views but the only answer is to walk away.

Does Morality Exist?

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