"Unconditional Love" -- What Does That Mean to You?
Hi!
This is a phrase that I've thought about often over the years -- some years more than others.
It's described as something required between parents and children, mates, family members, and most especially between us and Jehovah.
The only one I'm completely clear about is the unconditional love we must have for Jehovah. Also parents to their children. The other relationships are a bit more cloudy to me.
I'll offer my viewpoint on this after a bit (gotta run to lunch). But I'd love (unconditionally ) to know what you think about this.
Thanks so much,
Uani
__________________
It's taken me all my life to learn what not to play.
- Dizzy Gillespie
I think it means being able to look at someone despite their good/bad qualities and caring for them cause and inspite of them. Showing someone that no matter what they do you will ALWAYS care for them. I know it isn't an easy thing can you imagine wanting to give someone everything you can despite being hurt. But isn't that what some parents do when their children may sin against them? They forgive because of the love that they share! Married couples share this when they may have an argument and they compromise for the other person. Friends share this when they do the same.
It's a love based on just that LOVE. There are no reasons why that love is stunted, it is something that no one can truly explain cause it is a love based on principle, based on romance, based on family ties. It is a love that exists in any forms. It is a love Jehovah shows us. Look at how horrible some of mankind has acted towards him yet he still is willing to accept their repentance. He sent his ONLY-BEGOTTEN son to die for those people. Jesus came willingly knowing people would hate him! That is unconditional love. Doing things for others despite the reaction that they show us. We do it cause it is within our power, because if it is acceted as a good thing it will make us rejoice. That is what unconditional love is. A love based on the happiness it brings us despite the pains and trials we meet along the way.
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2 Cor 4:16-18 16 Therefore we do not give up, but even if the man we are outside is wasting away, certainly the man we are inside is being renewed from day to day. 17 For though the tribulation is momentary and light, it works out for us a glory that is of more and more surpassing weight and is everlasting; 18 while we keep our eyes, not on the things seen, but on the things unseen. For the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are everlasting.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I rant you read
Interesting points.
I'm wondering this -- of course we are are no position to put conditions on our expressions of love to Jehovah.
But, doesn't he put conditions upon us (he has every right to)? When Jehovah designates ones for destruction -- wasn't life conditional and those conditions failed to be met? Isn't repentance a "condition"?
I guess that's where I'm wondering if having requirements or expectations the same as having conditions. And how that is applied in human life.
__________________
It's taken me all my life to learn what not to play.
- Dizzy Gillespie
My 2 cents;
I don't believe in unconditional love, from me to others, except to Jehovah. that is to say, that my love is conditional. Which for me, means it has limits. I won't allow abuse of any kind towards me, that is a limit or a condition. It does not mean however that I quit loving my fellow, but the love is limited to strickly agape love, which is prinipaled. I will not show my affection for example to a fellow who is abusive to me or to othes in my presence. A limit, a condition.
Agape love for me, takes on expression for all mankind. Agape is one aspect of love. Love has many expressions. Phila, Storge' Eros.
For me to say that I love unconditionally my fellow, including family and friends, is not true. There are some things that are not ok with me, abuse is one of those things, and i won't for example be codependant with someone, they may want it, and that may be what love looks like to them, but it would poision them if I did 9in my opinion) so I would withhold codependancy and not do it the way they might want, but still love them, just in other ways. Those, are conditions to me.
If I see a freind headed down not a righteously wrong road, but one that is out of integrity with her stated goals and intentions, I will speak up. She might think I am being unsupportative. Well, my support might not look like what she wants, it will be there, but not necessairly jumping up and down with joy for this course she is taking. My love can be shown with great concerns based on what they have told me they want to do with their life and life course and goals, etc. Limits.
I have often heard friends say we as christians love unconditionally, but I don't feel I resemble that remark, I hope my love is expressed and shown in healthful way's that honor them and that honor myself. And until I change my thinking on this (which I am willing to do) my love definately has conditions, except my love and devotion to Jehovah.
Even if I had a child, there are some behavours that would not be acceptable, my love is not deminished for my child at all, but it has limitations and limitations to me are conditions, thus I'm not convinced unconditional love is possible or should be that is, if unconditional means no holds bar.
OK, I'm ready, throw the rotten tomatoes at me, you still gotta agape me though.
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
Even if I had a child, there are some behavours that would not be acceptable, my love is not deminished for my child at all, but it has limitations and limitations to me are conditions, thus I'm not convinced unconditional love is possible or should be that is, if unconditional means no holds bar.
It's that sort of love regarding children that's always interesting to me. I can't imagine a thing that would stop me from loving Adam.
I can imagine a few that would stop me from liking him, supporting him, ever wanting to be near him again.
How do you completely turn off that little flame that a child you bore lights? That's a "love" that won't go away, IMO.
However, I CAN see all semblance of love leaving for a mate, friend, family member (except maybe agape -- and that only to the extent that I wouldn't look to harm them. Don't ask me to talk to them or consider them part of my life anymore).
That's why it kinda makes me squirmy when I hear of one's looking for a mate to "love them unconditionally" or that NOTHING comes between family, etc.
I've got conditions to the love I give out. I'm not that cheap. I expect anyone I love to have standards and conditions and not take any junk from me, either. This is probably closely related to my ideas about respect.
Love does cover a multitude of sins, but it can only be stretched so far in a healthy relationship. Otherwise, you can end up with nothing to love yourself with.
Jehovah has his limits. Since we are made in his image, I think we're entitled to them, too.
__________________
It's taken me all my life to learn what not to play.
- Dizzy Gillespie
My thoughts...
I don't believe in unconditional love, from me to others, except to Jehovah. that is to say, that my love is conditional.
There are two basic qualities of unconditional love - trust and respect.
Can unconditional love for a person end? I believe it can. If someone betrays your trust and respect grievously - adultery, for example - that love can end.
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"Love will heal the wounds it makes"
Re: My thoughts...
If there wasn't such a thing as unconditional love, why would 1 Cor. 13:1-8 talk about it?
There are two basic qualities of unconditional love - trust and respect.
Can we substitute the word "all" for "every"?
I'm kinda thinking not, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Wouldn't "trust and respect" be considered conditions?
That's what I'm trying to get straight here . . .
__________________
It's taken me all my life to learn what not to play.
- Dizzy Gillespie
My opinion is "unconditional love" is just a version of worldly philosophy.
It is an expression often used when people don't want to accept responsibility for their actions.
I have a similar opinion of the expression "soulmate"....
She was always doing well in the truth. At 2 she loudly proclaimed "We don't celebrate Christmas" in the grocery store when asked what she wanted from santa. At 3 she would sing kingdom songs at the top of her lungs from our apartment balcony. At 17, when her dad went off the deep end and got DF'd and left, she tried valiantly to carry on, but the things that he did crushed her. Then the ensuing gossip, and the sudden death of a life long friend, I guess made her feel that Jehovah didn't care. I tried so hard to help her and get her help. But at age 19, she got disfellowshipped and now, at age 25, she is WAY out of the truth and very bitter over her experiences.
For my own sanity, I had to separate from her emotionally, and just try not to think about it. Thankfully, she moved up to Seattle several years ago so I don't have to see her.
Do I still love her? I try not to and try not to think about it, but she is my first born child. I can't just obliterate that love.
Now we have been strongly counseled not to have anything to do with DF'd relatives. And I want to say, "Please, Jehovah, just let me have a little time with her before she dies." We can't do that , though, and not many people have compassion for it. Most people have a very tough stance about it. So, I go on and try not to think about it...
So I guess you would say that, no, my love for my child can't even be unconditional.
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Agape,
Debbie
Jehovah is my refuge.
So the love is there, for all mankind, even a murderer in jail, or a rapist, would I not preach to them motivated by love,no, I would preach to them if I was there to do so, born of agape love.
But does that mean he can sit by me and put his arm around me, no. Does that mean I will be alone in a room with him, no. Likewise, with even family, if they are say verbally abusive, what I will allow them to do in my presence is limited. they can't treat me that way, I'm not going to invite them over to verbally abuse me. But, i will have agpelove for them, pray for them. Try to, when I have dealing with them, model what agape love and respect look like (to me).
So I see these things as conditions, any limit to me is a condition. But the agape love is there 24/7, since love has so many wy's of expressing itself, it seems these can be limits if withheld at times, not the withholding of agape, but the withholding of what is acceptable behavour. If a man started hitting a woman, my love for her would call for help, my love for Jah would keepme from hitting him and my love for him would propel me to do something to make him stop, so to keep her from getting futher hurt and him from further trouble and hopefully some help. Would I go hold his hand while the police came, no. I would hold hers. Conditions, limits as I see them.
Great topic Hope.
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
unconditional love....yes I have heard that too....never seen it in any of the Society's lit....I can appreciate how some use the term
well I don't see the need to use that term in connection with my love for Jehovah....I just love him....completely.....period.....I guess it would fit that unconditional definition but the word just doesn't come to mind with me and Jehovah.....
but now I could never say that I would love anybody unconditionally.....not even one of my children....so that term unconditonal love just never was a fit with me.......Guppie's first post here gave a lot of how I think about this......
Trust me, I love all of my children but I could never love them unconditionally and as a mother I can say this.....there could be situations and circumstances to me that would cause me not only to not like one of my children but that would cause my love for them to cease.......(and at the present I can be a sap about my children.......still try to hug my teen.....still call my grown son sweetie.....he still says I love you mom.....worry wort mom.....etc)......but I can see that I could go there.......I definitely do not love my babies unconditionally
as a matter of fact Jehovah went there too......
wow even my nano-seconds are loooong
__________________
"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
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"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
Hmmm...think of it this way.
Ok so I guess that what we can say is this...Depending on the type of love we have for someone it can be unconditional...Agape Love is UNCONDITIONAL in the fact that it is a loved baced on principle and is a requirement from Jehovah that it is to continue.
Also when we have a mate or a love intrest we feel for them eros, once that person hurts us or sins against us we then feel agape again because it is a love based on Principle. Then philia is a love we have for our brother's and sister's when they sin against Jehovah and no longer are our Brother's and sisters then we now go back to agape, again based on principle.
Then there is Storge which is that natarual affection we feel towards are family...parents, siblings, children...and when they may commit a sin and we begin to see them as strangers our natural affection for them stops, or we may hope it stops. And then what happens...we go back to agape.
so although TYPES of love may have conditions in the end we love unconditionally cause of that principle love that takes over no matter what happens...so the real thought should be which type of love can be unconditonal...and if that is the question then the answer would be agape.
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2 Cor 4:16-18 16 Therefore we do not give up, but even if the man we are outside is wasting away, certainly the man we are inside is being renewed from day to day. 17 For though the tribulation is momentary and light, it works out for us a glory that is of more and more surpassing weight and is everlasting; 18 while we keep our eyes, not on the things seen, but on the things unseen. For the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are everlasting.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I rant you read
__________________
Music hat charms to soothe a savage breast
To soften rocks, or bend a knotted oak.
-- William Congreve
-Col.3:23-
My Musings
From the beginning, Jehovah placed a condition on Adam & Eve's remaining in a spiritual relationship with Him & so many other scriptures that say Jehovah will leave us IF (conditional) we leave Him.
I think I still have the need to believe in the concept of "unconditional love" though I guess because the "child" in me wants so much to be loved no matter what & never feel rejected or abandoned.
~~"KEEP COPING & HOPING!"~~
****** Philippians 4:6, 7******
Don't just count your days; make your days count!
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x
So . . .
IS agape love to be always expressed "unconditionally"?
Reason I'm asking is that "love" always feels like an action word to me.
Is it love to merely not actively hurt or harm someone -- the passive sense?
If so, it doesn't seem that agape really requires much effort. If you don't try to kill someone who has broken your heart . . . or your arm, then is that expressing agape love?
I know I could look this stuff up. But I am interested in everyone's thoughts. Careyanne's was an angle that I've heard desired time and again.
Maybe we can put a different spin on that word "unconditional". You know how I like to examine every angle of an issue . . .
__________________
It's taken me all my life to learn what not to play.
- Dizzy Gillespie
If there wasn't such a thing as unconditional love, why would 1 Cor. 13:1-8 talk about it?
There are two basic qualities of unconditional love - trust and respect.
Can unconditional love for a person end? I believe it can. If someone betrays your trust and respect grievously - adultery, for example - that love can end. (bold added by Desert Rose)
I think I still have the need to believe in the concept of "unconditional love" though I guess because the "child" in me wants so much to be loved no matter what & never feel rejected or abandoned.
The only basis for this love to stop would be for one or both of the parties to destroy or undermine the foundation of trust and respect towards each other and/or towards Jehovah. So while this kind of love obviously has this particular condition, some of us use the term "unconditional love" in a slightly different context and with a slightly different meaning.
Well, at least in VICKI-LAND.
Because I personally have experienced rejection and abandonment by ones who were supposed to "love" me, I can so completely relate with what Careyanne said in her quote above. Perhaps this is why I don't view the term quite as stringently as others.
For example...what can a 5 year old little boy or girl possibly do to deserve having a parent abandon them?? Shouldn't a parent's love for their children be unconditional, at least until children are old enough to really do something terrible enough to change that??
Or what about a mate that has tried whole-heartedly to be a good husband or wife, only to be rejected by the one who was supposed to have loved them forever? Shouldn't love between mates be "unconditional" until or unless someone has done something severe enough to warrant the withdrawing of that love??
At any rate, I don't think there are necessarily cookie-cutter right or wrong answers to this...everyone sees things and FEELS things differently. Unconditional love to one person may mean something quite different to another. To me, it's similar to the "Soulmate" thing...some people don't believe in such a concept while others do. And even for those who do, it usually has different meanings to different people.
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~Desert Rose~
"Tenderness is greater proof of love than the most passionate of vows."
The only basis for this love to stop would be for one or both of the parties to destroy or
undermine the foundation of trust and respect towards each...
As conditions.
Vicky, I'm not picking you apart, but it's funny how I totally agree with you but see that as a condition. I stand very willing to have my mind changed on this.
Cheerful and I duked this out playfully a year or so ago, we agreed but did not agree, lol! It was fun and so interesting. Hey, Janet, you would love this thread, where are you????
OK DesertRose, you can hammer at me, it's your turn, but softly k? I hope you know I'm being playfully serious.
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
So while this kind of love obviously has this particular condition, some of us use the term "unconditional love" in a slightly different context and with a slightly different meaning.
Well, at least in VICKI-LAND.
Can I come over and borrow a cup of sugar?
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"Love will heal the wounds it makes"
why change your mind on this?
I agree with Vicki that this discussion has the feel of the soulmate/one true love discussion........
everyone will see it from all kinds of angles.......
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"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
Yep, that's how I choose to view it too, it describes the essence of the description if not the letter of it.
ioneblair, I will willingly change my opinion IF swayed, lol, I'have held on to this belief for many years and haven't been swayed YET! but boy have I enjoyed engaging in differing beliefs/opinions about this subject/quality.
But, yes, I am still "open" to being influenced differently. lol,
The "essence" and the "letter" hmmmmmmmmmmmm now that's an interesting subject FROSTFIRE.
Ok, I'll quit clowning around and get cereal.
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
ooohhhh
I see where some friends are coming from......I think
that love is unconditional in certain aspects of its expression.....like love your mate despite/in spite of......but still I personally see conditions because your love could still cease for that one if ...... but I will conditionally agree that aspects of the expression of love can be unconditional......
how you like them apples? I mean them s
Hope.... although love is an emotion, maybe it feels like an action to you because it can be known only from the actions it prompts
__________________
"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
I agree with Vicki that this discussion has the feel of the soulmate/one true love discussion........
Agreeing with Guppie that words like "IF", "as long as" The "only basis for ....to stop" sound like conditions to me. Can't be both ways, can it?
And still pondering over "unconditional agape love". Is that required? To me, love is not just something I feel, it's something I DO. Something is lacking if I don't feel like doing anything for somebody.
Thanks for all of your groovy thoughts, thus far . . .
U.
__________________
It's taken me all my life to learn what not to play.
- Dizzy Gillespie
That is at least one way Jehovah unconditionally loves us, in that he loved us and provided the ransom before we were even born.
I especially appreciate your comment that "It embodies loyalty and gives security. It is the kind of love that we, whether babies, children or adults of any age, need to thrive.
Speaking for myself...I feel that while (unconditional) love exists within certain boundaries (i.e. someone who is not DF'd, etc.) it is still unconditional within those boundaries. And within those boundaries love is not restricted or dependent upon conditions (i.e. "I'll love you IF...or WHEN...") and is not withheld as a means to control or to punish. Rather, it is a love that is constant, steady, trustworthy, accepting, growing and flourishing, making each person feel safe and secure and truly loved...with no strings attached, as Swidok said.
Again, I don't think that there are necessarily right or wrong answers...just differences in perception. Kind of like whether the glass is half-full or half-empty. Perhaps in my perception of unconditional love I'm viewing the water inside the glass as the possibility for unconditional love; whereas others are viewing the glass itself as the restriction against the possibility of unconditional love. Make sense? Oh well, fortunately my husband understands me!
Guppie...At least when you pick on someone you do it kindly and lovingly! I have nothing to hammer away at you for...I appreciate your thoughts and everyone elses thoughts on this!
Okay everyone...I'll be gone on vacation for the next two weeks so won't be here to explain myself during that time!
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~Desert Rose~
"Tenderness is greater proof of love than the most passionate of vows."
Now Hope to answer your question, I think agape is supposed to be unconditional. Jesus had that type of love for those people who put him to death, Jehovah had that type of love for the nation of Israel who continously sinned against Him. And aren't we supposed to strive to follow their examples in Love?? So to me that would mean that I have to learn to love unconditionally.
And I agree that there can be limits on unconditional love, well on the type of unconditional love we shoe but in the end...it winds up back at agape and that type of love is unconditional. By the standards that both Jesus and Jehovah set for us. The only other explination for conditions on this type of love would be imperfection.
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2 Cor 4:16-18 16 Therefore we do not give up, but even if the man we are outside is wasting away, certainly the man we are inside is being renewed from day to day. 17 For though the tribulation is momentary and light, it works out for us a glory that is of more and more surpassing weight and is everlasting; 18 while we keep our eyes, not on the things seen, but on the things unseen. For the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are everlasting.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I rant you read
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It's is so interesting to me how we can look at the same thing so differently, and it is amusing and ahhh so enjoyalbe, stimulating.
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
It's is so interesting to me how we can look at the same thing so differently, and it is amusing and ahhh so enjoyalbe, stimulating.
Sure will miss you friends for a few day's and look forward to this and other threads when we get back home.
Here is an affectionate * headbonk for you and yes, it is conditional, it depends on your conditions of receiving it. lol, ok I will get off this pulpit, I'm just having so much fun here! TTFN
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
ENJOY! Have a very good time away......
Hope, I think you read me short sis.....read the next line after the one you quoted from me and you will see what I meant.....I was agreeing with Vicki and we were both saying that this discussion is just like a discussion of whether a soulmate/one true love exists.....there is no definitive answer and all will express what it means to them.....but I don't think you are seeking a def answer and for that reason, the question ""unconditional agape love". Is that required" may not fit here.....
That term is not used or commented on in the Society's literature, still we are free to express what it means to us personally......whether and why we feel it exists or does not exists, but this is not official, just people talking.......so it can't be a "requirement"
for example Swidok gives a beautiful explanation in what unconditional love means to him as Jehovah providing his precious son for disobedient mankind......he looks at the initial expression of that ransom as unconditional love because humans did not have to do anything to prompt Jehovah to do that....He loved us first......now I look at a more total picture because if one tramples on that precious blood or refuses to put faith in it......Jehovah's love for them will cease.......and so will they.......I see "strings attached".....conditions.....
these are all aspects because I understand how friends here are viewing giving someone the security of your love and trust as unconditional, and the need for security in being loved, the necessity of feeling loved and thriving in knowing you are loved without that love being pulled away for selfish, imperfect, unmerciful and uncompassionate reasons/conditions
I look at agapé love from many ways and we know that it has a wider expression than any other love because it is based on principles.......however to me it is conditional because I will not for example love the evil slave class, or an apostate, or a demon, or Satan.....but I do extend that love to others in the physical and spirit realm.......and of course that love encompasses those who do not yet know God......
Hi Kalli ....glad you are enjoying this.....it is giving my one brain cell some exercise.....I think any discussion about love any kind and any form will bring interesting comments
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"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
Frostfire- in the front of my bible is a citation from a talk I attended. The line used was 'Are you a loyalist, or a legalist? I remember the talk being about the difference of the pharisees and true servants of Jehovah. Much like your essence and letter, eh?
In the original dictionary citation offered by our Mistress of Interesting Threads, Lady Hope, I was struck by the idea of love without hypocrisy, in that the love mentioned wouldn't be dependant on who was there to see your love/behavior toward the loved one. That was one sense of the idea of unconditional love that struck me as being in fulfillment of 1cor 13.
The unconditional love spoken of usually by the world is one that allows for any defect, and is one unbalanced by justice, I think. It's the one that you see on the news when the murder victim's family protests the punishment of the perpetrator.
Our (JWs) idea of real unconditional love is quite different. I think unconditional love can only be thought of in terms of agape, of course, as eros, storge, and philia can be killed by the actions of the 'loved' one through repeated abuse or one great act of betrayal. In some ways, those loves can be selfish emotions. Love and hate are 2 sides of the same coin, passion. We shouldn't mistake agape for a cold and soulless love of principle, for it is both warm and tender. Love cannot be cold, to my mind, as it has at its heart (pardon please the pun) kindness and the desire to do good. And principled love has as it's heart principles. Good. Morality. Justice. Kindness.
The part that the world, who have an unbalanced view of love do not understand (having mistaken it for cheap sentimentality) is that a manifestation of love is true justice. To not associate with a df'ed person is an act of love, for it will bring them to their senses to save their lives.... Love is not sentimentality, unguided and mushy. It is a strong emotion, a fire that purifies our souls to do what is clean and right and good, first to Jehovah God, and in so doing to all around us.
in the front of my bible is a citation from a talk I attended. The line used was 'Are you a loyalist, or a legalist? I remember the talk being about the difference of the pharisees and true servants of Jehovah...
But when one of my sons began taking drugs for years and became verbally abusive with me I knew even that love has limits. I love him still and see him occassionally with the understanding of his respecting me. If he doesn't I leave. I have pulled the car over (at a safe place of course) and kindly but firmly let him out. He is 21 now. It hurts me to do that but to stay hurts even more.
For years I witnessed to my father and step-mother. When she died my father became quite abusive if I mentioned the scriptures. And he was the one who brought up religion and insisted on an answer. So for the last 2 years of his life I went to check on him but did not spend any time with him at all. It hurt me deeply but I finally began to put limits on how people- even my own dad- could treat me.
Whether we want it to be a fact or not, I think love always has limits. Because we are imperfect humans and chained within limits for one thing. To love as much as we possibly can is the hope....without letting love turn into some destructive force which allows harmful actions toward us or others and makes excuses for it. Well, that wouldn't be love would it.
There is no reason to limit our love for Jehovah. He only has lovable and admirable qualities that lift the heart higher in loyalty toward him.
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Wish I could remember where I put my mind..........
Many's views are colored for example by their personalities or their experiences in their childhood or past bad relationships, the area of the world or country or town that they live in, what they have seen in their lives or their need for security in love and how they see that.
I like what smee said as another example of this. Many have been exposed to or hear this term which is used quite a lot in the world. For example I have heard it many many times in connection with homosexual behavior. Worldly people use this term in this sense to say that one should accept this "alternate lifestyle" this depraved practice......based on unconditional love......not only loving that one but accepting their way of living. Even to the world this is different from loving the sinner and hating the sin.....unconditional love to them eliminates any idea or concept of sin.....redefining the sin in that context of unconditional love as just a "choice" equal to a choice of being heterosexual, and even among heterosexuals the unconditional love has been used to accept fornication and adultery in not viewing living together or "swinging" (swapping marriage partners) as anything other than a way one chooses to live. Unconditional love in this area as the world uses it sees no wrong while freely associating with or having this go on right under their own roofs.
Now I know that we have nothing to do at all with all of this but if one is exposed to this term in this sense for example....this may influence how they see this term.......
no two people come to this discussion from the exact same background and exposures and personalities.....
thus the differing interpretations and understandings and views....this might also be a good thing to remember when according to our perception we view anyone being a stickler in any other discussion of matters that are free and open to personal interpretations
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"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
illustrations help, boy we get good theocratic training and it helps us in all areas of life huh?
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"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
thus the differing interpretations and understandings and views....this might also be a good thing to remember when according to our perception we view anyone being a stickler in any other discussion of matters that are free and open to personal interpretations
Momster, your personal experience was very moving. I've been pondering over your words here:
quote:
I've also been thinking about comments made by javaprincess about agape love, especially when it is applied to someone who has hurt us in some way... may have been disciplined.. but has shown remorse.
If this person is truly repentant, we are under obligation -- as a matter of principle -- to extend love toward that one.
Another thought that comes to mind here is how Jehovah is the perfect example of love, he shows perfect love. It's interesting that we can imitate this to a degree (in our imperfect state) in the sense that our love can be complete. Colossians 3:14 comes to mind:
quote:
__________________
- Bev -
aka NiteMouse
Love is conditional for us humans. You hurt me too many times, I fall out of love. Or perhaps, while I still love, I can't show it so that you can't hurt me again. I dig a moat outside my wall. The only love that is unconditional is Jehovah's.
Say when my mate married me I was an interesting person to him, say he liked that I had hobbies and he saw that my personal study influenced passion in me for Jehovah and his organization, and say that I took good basic care of myself emotionally, pysically and spiritually so he enjoyed being around me, I was interesting to him, I brought interests i had to our relationship and, while he might not sahre the same interest he was thrilled to see me enjoy another aspect of life, and say, that he saw me engage in nurturing, playful, affectionate friendships and these things drew him to me, it added to why he enjoyed my company and being in my presence.
THEN......
Some years pass say, and I lost interest in my hobbies, and let my personal hygiene slip, did not take as good care of myself, since we were such good buddies, I let some of my friendships go unnurtured, I went to all the meetings maybe but my personal study habits shifted, I no longer dug into the meat of the study material and did research prhaps. Am I manifesting in my day to day life the same things that he found interesting in me and that he enjoyed and rspected? Not all together. Would I be surprized if he still loved me very much but found me less enjoyable to be around or down right boring? I hope I would not be surprized.
this is not about clinical depression or an illness of anykind, please don't think I am speaking about that, I'm thinking about a "rut" some ppl can get in because of the "safety" marrried life produces in the truth. those things are not grounds for seperation or divorce thankfully!
But, even though they aren't can we get lazy and forget what made us so interesting to our mate?
Aren't we accountable to some degree to them, to take care of ourselves and in so doing doesn't that add to the enjoyment of the "relationship", not just the "marriage"?
In the world, ppl get bored with each other and divorce, then 6 months later their marriage counselor runs into them and they say "hey, the divorce was the best thing that I could have done, I lost weight, I took up jogging, I enrolled in a class, wow, life is great now". And the counselor replies; "well, why did it take a divorce to get you off your butt and become an interesting person again, wasn't your mate, and yourself worth you working at what makes you enjoyable to be around"?
I guess my point is sorta that I want to be loved and adored for my personality by my mate, for what I am committed to and how I live my life and if he doesn't share all my passions I know he gets excited that I get excited about aspects of life.
If I let that go and become a couch potatoe how interesting is Dan going to find me?
This is not a condition I would put on him, he is accountable to live his life the way he chooses between he and Jah and partly to me for his vows to me, but I hold a condition on MYSELF to take good care of myself so that I will as I grow and change, grow and change and still be interestng to him.
It would be so easy to not put in any effort, and now that he has to love me, and he does so to speak, but does he have to enjoy me? I think that has allot to do with me, absent of clinical depression and medical illness many of the friends have to contend with.
There seems to sometimes be a "laziness" about marriage, or there can be, and ppl can get so side tracked with taking care of the relationship that they don't spend time on taking care of themselves as an individual.
I know this is out in left field, but Dan and I had a great conversation about this on our vacation the last couple of day's and we recommitted to each other to take good care of ourselves individually AS WELL as the relatinship so that we don't become uninteresting ppl we are stuck with.
March will be 14 years, it's been ever changing, but change does not always mean progress, so we reminded each other of the need to relook at each other, and tell each other the truth about what we find interesting about the other, why we enjoy each others company and what we resepct about each other, and wht, if anything we wish for the other person, do we wish them more joy or contentment do they seem to lack that to a noticeable degree? And if so what does that mean? This we think is a gentle, loving way to be helpful to the other.
I remember, even when I had clinical depression, Dan took up basketball again, and at first I thought "how could he go out and have fun when I am so sad and miserable!!??"
But even in that state of illness, I got jealous in a goodly way and seeing him take care of himself despite my condition helped me, I wanted out too, I wanted to have fun too.
So I ask Dan to have conditions towards me, conditional love, "Dan, if you see me not taking care of myself and it becomes a patter or iif my joy lessens considerably please call it to my attention" "Dan, if I get lazy and give up on interests because they are too much or going out to have coffee with a girlfriend whom I enjoy so much, if I stop those things that I have enjoyed PLEASE tell me about it".
Thankfully he has agreed to conditionally love me in this way I've requested, and like it or not he will hear about it from me with regards to him, but friends, I'm j/k he likds it, well, he wants me to. We may not like it but we want it, it's a "sting" when we do cuz it calls us to accountability to ourselves and each other. But that is part of the vow(s) and to me, a healthful condition.
Another novel, see what fresh air, a brief vacation and mega R & R and enjoyment do to me? I'll be quite now, Dan say's "Guppie are you writing a book there??" Gup say's "Well does it make me interesting...??"
Oh, it just occurred to me I might want to edit in that being loveable is not the same as being enjoyable or being interesting to be with, at least to me. I have Dan's love, but I also want his interest and him to enjoy my company and time with me. I am a loveable being, my qualities make me so (to Dan and some friends and some family) but by being loveable is not completely about qualities that are shown in our relationship only, since I am healthy and able, being loveable as far as qualities that make me so go, also take on expression in the things that I do or spend time doing. My attitude about work for exmaple can make me pleasurable to be around or someone he always needs to be a sounding board for. Yes, I want that from him, but not all the time, if I do it everyday and when hem arried me I did not have that attitude what happened within myself?
This is long and I'm not sure I'm expressing myself as clear as I'd like. But I will take that chance, this is fun and enjoyable.
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
my random thoughts on unconditionsl love
oops, shoulda been a pm for u...
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the more things change, the more they stay insane
. . . our Mistress of Interesting Threads, Lady Hope
Glad folks are finding this interesting. Kinda wondering where are the brothers, for their input -- but c'est la vie . . .
Anyhoo -- terrific thoughts by all! Indeed, I wasn't necessarily trying to get an "engraved in stone" definition of unconditional love and how it is to be applied. But I do admit to having "legalist" tendencies. I like to know what's right and wrong, the "correct" way to do things. Helps me feel "sure". It's an aspect of my personality that will probably never go away -- and frankly, it's an aspect that has it's practical uses, especially being a head of the household and all . . .
I recognize the necessity to discern the "essence" as opposed to merely the "words" of the law, and that it's something I personally have to work on. I am quite comfortable with rules and regulations; even my "conscience" decisions tend to become "rules" with me. So, there it is. One more crotchety thing to work out.
Fascinating ruminations, Guppie. Questions, though. Do you really consider the requests you made of Dan to "stop you before you kill again" as it were by reminding you where you need to pull up a bit a condition of his love? Meaning that if you don't respond as you both desire, he will stop loving you?
I completely understand the spirit behind the discussion, and I do agree with it. I'm sure it's a serious drag when a mate purposely (meaning no illness or other major issue) stops being the person one fell in love with. Just too lazy to keep oneself up, or whatever. We should honor our responsibility to remain lovable and enjoyable to our mates. And be willing to make changes where necessary and possible.
I'm just wondering if considering those requests for readjustment the same as "conditions" for love is as positive as they might be.
Of course, as mentioned a few times, this discussion is completely subjective. No right or wrong answers. I think it's great that Lauri and Dan have the kind of progressive relationship that they can talk about these things without either partner getting bent out of shape; it's something I'd like to have.
I do believe that all love (except for Jehovah) has conditions or limits. Like I mentioned earlier, if expressing agape love can mean as little as not seeking to harm somebody, then I guess that can be unconditional, too, (though I'd really have to work on it if someone hurt my boy. Death would be too good for them).
Speaking of the boy -- who is getting baptized in five days , my love for him is not based on anything he's done or will do; it's here because he's here. That kinda describes "unconditional" to me. I've heard it described as having a piece of your heart walking around outside your body.
I don't believe another human will ever have that sort of uncondtional love from me.
Uani
__________________
It's taken me all my life to learn what not to play.
- Dizzy Gillespie
I've seen what you're talking about among couples who divorced. As soon as they got divorced, they began "working" on their personal issues...weight loss, beginning a class, I've even seen individuals undergo "cosmetic surgery" in an effort to become "better". Like you said, if they'd put more effort into "self-improvement" BEFORE a divorce came into the picture, maybe things would have turned out differently.
Like I heard once in an assembly talk, "Don't look for a better mate & friend; BECOME a better mate & friend!"
HOPE, just wanted to say I think it's wonderful that your son is getting baptized. It is such a blessing to hear of another young person dedicating his life to love & serve Jehovah. You have every reason to be happy & proud. It shows you have done a wonderful job of raising him & being an excellent example as a Christian mother.
__________________
~~"KEEP COPING & HOPING!"~~
****** Philippians 4:6, 7******
Don't just count your days; make your days count!
I don't necessairly want to be the same person he married, I hope to grow and change, but those aspects he did find interesting and enjoy I hope are still there even if it's expressed in say, a different hobby or another way, manifesting my personality and character.
I realize abusive situations, illness, etc can limit that expression for so many, but since I am well and healthy I invite him to call to my attention if he sees my joy waining. Its a question we often ask each other, "how is your joy"? if we notice that one of us seems to lack joy or contentment over a period of time, say day's or a week. Even if something "big" has come up, we expect each other to to take care of ourselves so that inspite of hard times, joy can still enter in. That discovery of each other is endless and interesting in itself. I feel accountable to him to take care of myself as well as to Jah and myself. He had high cholestrol for example and we talked about it, it did not bother him as much as it did me, his gpa died at 40 of a heart attack, so I was concerned, and reminded him he is accountable to me as his wife to take care of his health. It prompted him to do just that. And he has approached me with things too, many things!
That's pretty much what I meant, not that his love would or should cease, but that he'd still find me intersting and enjoyable to be around, it's a condition I put on him or request of him to request back of me. It's not easyt but its worth it and we blow it all the time believe me but we think its worth the blunders and mishaps, it produces good results.
I have a life besides "us" and he does too, and the things we do that we don't share IN with each other we share ABOUT to the other, and there's such enjoyment in that.
Not that he will find everything I do neat, but the basic aspects of my personality, which is more than my spirituality I want him to enjoy too and I have gotten lazy before, and I don't want that to happen again, I basically took him for granted, and stood on the ground that "he has to love and cherish me cuz Jah say's so", I'd rather him do it cuz he wants to, the love is there, but the interest COULD wain if I let myself go again like I did many years ago.
Nuff outta me, there are many great posts here. thanks for asking Uani.
Carryanne we wereposting at the same time, thank you, this subject is one of my passions, I'm editing in this thank you, and Uani I forgot the most important part, it is such good news to hear about your son's public dedication to our great and wonderful creator.
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
I think 'unconditional love' is one of the cruelest hoaxes Satan has perpetrated on humans to date. It is a total perversion of agape love which, by definition, IS conditional by virtue of principles. Since "God IS love", it is therefore a perversion of Jehovah himself.
My reasons for this conclusion:
1. Why doesn't the Bible or the 'faithful and discreet slave' use this term?
2. Why haven't we heard about 'unconditional love' before? It's quite a modern way of thinking. You didn't hear about it even a few years ago, certainly not when I was growing up. Must be another one of those modern philosophies. Manmade, yes - but could it be Satanic?
3. What are the fruits of this teaching? It seems so good and appealing on the surface. Who wouldn't want to be loved unconditionally? But it has caused immeasurable pain. Disobedient children throw it in their parents' faces. Heartbroken and crushed parents are told that they must forgive the pervert who raped and killed their child. I'm sure you can think of more. But of course the worst, "It doesn't matter what you do. God loves you anyway."
And there, to me, is the perversion. Does the brochure, "What Does God Require?" appeal to a person who believes in 'unconditional love'? Does it show respect for all our faithful brothers and sisters who, because of their deep love for Jehovah, strive hard to please him and bring glory to him by their faithfulness and integrity? With this teaching - why bother? God loves you anyway! Most of all, it perverts Jehovah himself, because it misrepresents what true love is.
How much more I love the expression the Bible uses -
loyal love. Doesn't that really say it all?
Thanks.
DING DING DING DING!!!
DebB -- you have expressed yourself MOST eloquently and I totally LOVE your viewpoint!
(not that anyone else's isn't as good . . . )
But this logic/angle is incredibly thought-provoking to me. I've stated before that I don't believe in "unconditional love" and DebB's post pretty much illustrates why. Loyal Love is the thing!
Likin' it, baby!
U.
__________________
It's taken me all my life to learn what not to play.
- Dizzy Gillespie
__________________
I can be
changed by
what happens to me.
But I refuse to be
REDUCED by it. ~Maya Angelou
congrats on the boy, hope!
nothing like that feeling, when you see them getting baptized...no matter what happens after that, you will always have that moment (among all the others, first smile, first steps) my kids made a collage frame of my (and their) favorite pics, and their baptism pics are right in the center. the one dear elder friend we had in CA, who knew them since they were babies, baptized both of them. love it. but i digress...but it was important...
deb b don't ever be afraid to contribute something substantial! that was great. 'cept i didn't see where you were coming from on the possibly satanic philosophy?
but i don't pay much attention to the pop philosophy of the world, especially when the term contradicts the definition. so i'm not getting the worldly definition of "unconditional love" that you are referring to. if it means "love me no matter how much i poop on you and everything you stand for"...well, i wouldn't get it. because *that* does not fit the definition of love.
love, any sort of love, has to have an element of loyalty as it's foundation for me to consider it love. lust doesn't count--(even though the greeks have a word for erotic "love" that we translate into love, there's something lost in the translation there...)
the very purest emotion of love i have ever felt as a human for a human was the moment i looked into my newborns' eyes for the first time. that feeling is my definition of unconditional love. you're not thinking "what if you grow up and leave the truth...what if you turn out rotten...what if you become an apostate" at that moment. what i feel for my children has never changed--that feeling has remained at the core of my feelings for them, despite disappointments.
i felt the same thing (to a lesser degree) when i held each of my nephews for the first time. two of them were adopted. i couldn't care less where they came from or how they came into this world, or what they become. there's a bond there that will always be, and i can't imagine any of them doing something so horrible as to extinguish that.
as totally crazy as i am about my husband, and as much as i feel that i will always love him, no mater what (but not meaning i will put up with an endless amount of crap), it's a different feeling.
i don't feel that any person has the right to present the "you have to love me" as a claim check, especially if that one does nothing to inspire feelings of love. i don't "owe" love to an unlovable person...i owe Jehovah to try to love another because *he* asks it of me, not because the one who abuses me turns araround and demands it of me as his sister...and *that* my friends, is my definition of unconditional love...and there is only one to whom i *owe* unconditional love, and really only one who is worthy of it...i'm just thankful he indulges me my passionate feelings for my family, and indeed, makes it part of my obligation to him.
i know not every parent feels like i do, and it's not important that they do. paul would not have had to admonish the older women to "recall the younger women to their senses, to love their husbands, to love their children" if every woman felt the same way...and variety is good...etc...
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the more things change, the more they stay insane
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Posted by Swidok on 12-24-2002 10:48 AM:
As they have so many other things, Satan and people of the world have taken a good thing and twisted and distorted it to further their own selfish ends and desires.
Unconditional love in a pure form is about refusal to use the other's desire or need for love to manipulate or control him or her by a carrot and stick approach. It precludes one from seeking to get one's way by threatening to withhold love if the other does not comply with one's demand or wishes.
Unconditional love in its place properly given does not sanction evil or selfishness, nor does it abandon moral standards. It is long-suffering, but simply is not jealous, does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked or keep account of the injury. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. The real thing never fails. (Someone said something like that one time. )
Is there more to Christian love? Of course. It is not passive but active. It is kind, it does not rejoice over unrighteousness but rejoices with the truth. Sometimes that includes withholding of approval of wrong actions or even fellowship; sometimes it means zealous, proactive opposition to bad. But it is never selfish and manipulative, driving a hard bargain to secure something by force that one only has a right to receive as a freely-given gift.
If in our imperfection we have used love as a tool to manipulate, it is often hard to divest ourselves of the practice. It takes effort and discipline to overcome that sort of selfishness. At the same time, it takes discernment and determination to realise that it is not selfish to decline to be an accomplice in another's headlong refusal to abide by Jehovah's standards.
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Posted by shelby on 12-24-2002 02:32 PM:
quote:
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Sometimes that includes withholding of approval of wrong actions or even fellowship; sometimes it means zealous, proactive opposition to bad....it takes discernment and determination to realise that it is not selfish to decline to be an accomplice in another's headlong refusal to abide by Jehovah's standards.
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i totally agree. and is it not an act of love for someone, child, parent, partner...to set limits when that one is behaving badly?
i think it is an act of love. it would certainly be more expediant not to confront and just pretend "it" didn't exist...secure in my knowledge that i was doing the right thing by loving and accepting that ones flaws...(uh, yeah, that sounds like my style, right...not!)
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the more things change, the more they stay insane
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Posted by ioneblair on 12-24-2002 05:17 PM:
quote:
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i know not every parent feels like i do, and it's not important that they do. paul would not have had to admonish the older women to "recall the younger women to their senses, to love their husbands, to love their children" if every woman felt the same way...and variety is good...etc...
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__________________
"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
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Posted by shelby on 12-24-2002 06:22 PM:
quote:
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however I think in this passage of this scripture Paul was dealing with a lack of or proper love...not variety.........
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apples and oranges...i wasn't talking about variety in the context of paul's words, i was talking about maternal love in the context of paul's words..
perhaps if i separate it...make a little chart...pauls words: "recall the young women to their senses, to love their husbands, to love their children"...ok, this suggests that these young women have "fallen out of love" with their families, but that they *can* be "recalled to their senses" thereby regaining their love. which means that they were not the sort that totally lacked the capacity for such love. if they lacked the capacity for proper love for their families, no older woman would be able to impart that to them with a few encouraging words. i can't make it much plainer than that, and if i'm misinterpreting his words, i would surely like to know how they can be taken any other way...
my ramblings (totally separate from paul's words but ruminating, meditating on having to actually be admonished to love your children. i can't relate. is it wrong to be "detatched"? to me it is...maybe though, it's just "different." different parenting styles in the realm of variety...variety being the middle ground of the two extremes between the "unconditionally loving" parent and the emotionally detatched is where the variety comes in...and variety is good...
and now you know, u why i waited so long to contribute to your thread....
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the more things change, the more they stay insane
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Posted by ioneblair on 12-24-2002 06:29 PM:
my apologies sis if I misunderstood you.....cause in this case I guess I still do in your application of Paul's words to your now (and thank you for the further explanation for my benefit) further explained point.....you do give new meaning to Paul's words.....
__________________
"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
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Posted by shelby on 12-24-2002 06:37 PM:
hmmm, no, if you're looking for twisted scriptures here, you've come to the wrong sister...if my "explanation" confuses you more, i can always remove it...
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the more things change, the more they stay insane
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Posted by ioneblair on 12-24-2002 06:43 PM:
shelby, sis, I am not looking for twisted scriptures sis.....what could give you that idea?.....I just read in this thread and came to your post and understood that Paul's words were in relation to discipline and reproof not in the context that you were using that passage.....and I responded, that is all.....remove if you like sis that is your call.....truthfully your explanation does confuse me but that is besides the point....I am not the most deep thinker and will perhaps just do not get your application, which I just said....that I still misunderstand your point, nothing unusual in that right? and to my understanding the lack was not total, nor did I intimate such ....
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and if i'm misinterpreting his words, i would surely like to know how they can be taken any other way...
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__________________
"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
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Posted by smeelittle on 12-24-2002 08:19 PM:
The cross references in that scripture (Tisus 2:3-4) counseling the older women to be behaving in a manner befitting the truth so that they would be able to help the younger women also keep focused on their appropriate role in the family are 1 peter 3:1 and Ephesians 6:4, one having to do with winning their unbelieving husbands through their good conduct, the other on properly disciplining and training their children, rather than perhaps just gossiping about how that young wife is not taking care of her household as she should?? OTOH, it's not easy to go to a younger sister and offer to help her work on this... talk about sticking your neck out there to get bit off! But imagine how much more effective in this situation an older sister can be in helping to train a younger one to take care of her household more effectively than an elder, as a man, ever could. Once again, a labor of love by that older sister.
I notice that those cross references also point up the reality of love being something proven through actions, much like faith. In reality, wives can neglect their husbands or children for their own interests, showing a selfish lack of love. Actions and feelings entwine... one enhances and even produces the other.
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Posted by shelby on 12-25-2002 10:33 AM:
don't want to go too far off topic...
but thanx, smeelittle, you got it...and you're right about putting your head on the block..
quote:
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talk about sticking your neck out there to get bit off! But imagine how much more effective in this situation an older sister can be in helping to train a younger one to take care of her household more effectively than an elder, as a man, ever could. Once again, a labor of love by that older sister.
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the "older woman" can't give her something she doesn't have. and i don't understand people who just don't have it, (and don't want to understand them!!) but i know they exist
i can't say i've ever gone through a period of time where i didn't love my children. unconditionally. they've been a thorn sometimes, but the love is the anchor that stopped me from chucking it all and running away when totally overwhelmed. never felt as if i didn't love them...but since paul says it's possible for young women to feel that way, i must take his word for it.
when comparing varieties of parenting styles, in my mind, anything less than full committment seems just plain wrong.
i've met some (what i considered) very detached parents, even in the truth. parents who let their teens go on overnight trips a hundred miles away without adult supervision. after all, they're "old enough to know right from wrong." parents who had no clue where their teens were at night, and really weren't worried. i can't imagine how that would feel. probably feels better than worrying...
in an effort not to criticize what i can't understand, i write it off to variety. different strokes. different parenting styles. diversity. diversity is good. variety=looking outside the mirror of me, and not expecting everybody to be just like me, (as if i'm the ideal, and anything outside my little parameters is wrong..)
but the only way diversity ties in with what paul said at all is that apparently it's normal for a young woman to go through times where she is less than enamoured with her role as wife and mother. and he presumes that she can be recalled to her senses with the right approach.
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the more things change, the more they stay insane
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Posted by wispy on 12-25-2002 11:28 PM:
Edith Bunker's love for Archie. Nuff said.
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Posted by ioneblair on 12-26-2002 06:08 AM:
quote:
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Actions and feelings entwine... one enhances and even produces the other.
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shelby, you say a mouthful sis......and it is very encouraging isn't it that Paul mentions that through loving actions we can be 'recalled to our senses', assisted and admonished or redirected when the need arises.....(aspects of reproof).....but I know this wasn't your point.....btw apples and oranges are among my favorite fruit.....interesting......
I find it so interesting the many ways unconditional love is viewed here from those who believe in it and those who don't....
wispy so funny and I loved that show so immediately I saw a picture of Edith running back and forth.....remember? and since you brought up fictional characters, I was watching Stuart Little 2 with my baby last night and hey! let me throw that in this pot too.....
Mom's love for Stuart......Nuff said.
__________________
"It takes INNER STRENGTH to go down the road of life. And each of us has that."
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Posted by Sperry on 12-26-2002 09:50 AM:
Hope, please give Adam a hug for me. As a mother myself, I can almost feel your happiness. My son hasn't made that dedication yet but for those that do, it is truly a blessing.
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Posted by Hope on 12-26-2002 11:09 AM:
Adam is getting tired of me hugging him!
But I'll give him another one from you Sperry! Thanks to all you well-wishers -- I will be posting pix!
Back to the thread -- I do agree and very much appreciate that there are different ways of expressing all kinds of love to all kinds of people. What works in one family or situation may not be as effective in another circumstance.
Not that every scripture is open to our own interpretations, but just think of the cool, "enlightened" feeling we get from talks when we hear a scripture applied in a way that we hadn't considered before. It doesn't mean the brother mis-applied a scripture. Having a light strike the "gem of the truth" from another angle just enhances the beauty of what we have.
As I mentioned only Adam, Jehovah, and by extension Jesus Christ are getting "unconditional love" from me. Everybody else has to live up to the standards -- just like I do.
Love . . . ?
Uani
__________________
It's taken me all my life to learn what not to play.
- Dizzy Gillespie
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Posted by musafiri on 12-27-2002 03:52 PM:
Love!
Tha Bible rightly describes "Love" like this:Love is long suffering and kind.Love is not jealous,it does not brag,does not get puffed up,does not behave idecently,does not look for its own interests,does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury.It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth.It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.(1 Corinthians 13 : 4-7)
I think that is what I would understand unconditional love to mean, if it has all these qualities.
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"He that is walking in integrity will walk in security" ( Prov. 10: 9 )
VOMIT Alert----Unconditional Love per a JW DB-----long (65 posts)
by blondie 38 Replies latest jw friends
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blondie
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unbeliever
What a horrid bitch of a mother Miss Latte is. She actually admits to trying not to love her daughter and is glad she does not see her.
I hope the daughter is getting the support she needs.
Posted by Miss Latte on 12-18-2002 06:48 PM:
Hope, I am in the situation with my oldest child, and I can tell you, it's very hard.
She was always doing well in the truth. At 2 she loudly proclaimed "We don't celebrate Christmas" in the grocery store when asked what she wanted from santa. At 3 she would sing kingdom songs at the top of her lungs from our apartment balcony. At 17, when her dad went off the deep end and got DF'd and left, she tried valiantly to carry on, but the things that he did crushed her. Then the ensuing gossip, and the sudden death of a life long friend, I guess made her feel that Jehovah didn't care. I tried so hard to help her and get her help. But at age 19, she got disfellowshipped and now, at age 25, she is WAY out of the truth and very bitter over her experiences.
For my own sanity, I had to separate from her emotionally, and just try not to think about it. Thankfully, she moved up to Seattle several years ago so I don't have to see her.
Do I still love her? I try not to and try not to think about it, but she is my first born child. I can't just obliterate that love.
Now we have been strongly counseled not to have anything to do with DF'd relatives. And I want to say, "Please, Jehovah, just let me have a little time with her before she dies." We can't do that , though, and not many people have compassion for it. Most people have a very tough stance about it. So, I go on and try not to think about it...
So I guess you would say that, no, my love for my child can't even be unconditional. __________________
Agape,
Debbie -
blondie
Sorry, unbeliever, I did not read every post. It is amazing the range of comments that are made. Some are so hard-hearted and others still cling to the idea of unconditional love, which is not an official teaching of the WTS. They really want to fool themselves, until the day they are marked, reproved, or DF'd. Then the lessons in unconditional love in the WTS begins.
Blondie
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waiting
Gee...............thanks.
After reading, I just feel kinda depressed.
But at age 19, she got disfellowshipped and now, at age 25, she is WAY out of the truth and very bitter over her experiences.
For my own sanity, I had to separate from her emotionally, and just try not to think about it. Thankfully, she moved up to Seattle several years ago so I don't have to see her.
Do I still love her? I try not to and try not to think about it, but she is my first born child. I can't just obliterate that love.Now we have been strongly counseled not to have anything to do with DF'd relatives. And I want to say, "Please, Jehovah, just let me have a little time with her before she dies." We can't do that , though, and not many people have compassion for it. Most people have a very tough stance about it. So, I go on and try not to think about it...
So I guess you would say that, no, my love for my child can't even be unconditional.__________________
Agape,
DebbieThis was the most heart-wrenching - like, just slap the idiot upside the head. But I remember thinking......can I somehow word my prayer to Jehovah so I won't get in trouble praying for my df'd child....yet He might still accept my prayer? Damned closed minded mother - because she loves the mind image of Jehovah.
Btw the way, when Debbie wanted to pray to Jehovah about her daughter, but couldn't because of JW laws....who was she talking about when saying "not many people have compassion for it. Most people hae a very tough stance about it." JW's? tough stance in relation to their kids? Or worldly people who think JW's are idiots because of their stance in relation to their kids?
Trust me, I love all of my children but I could never love them unconditionally and as a mother I can say this.....there could be situations and circumstances to me that would cause me not only to not like one of my children but that would cause my love for them to cease.......(and at the present I can be a sap about my children.......still try to hug my teen.....still call my grown son sweetie.....he still says I love you mom.....worry wort mom.....etc)......but I can see that I could go there.......I definitely do not love my babies unconditionally
as a matter of fact Jehovah went there too...... ioneblairyeah, if my kid was a serial killer or stalked me (or others)......yeah. But other than gross criminal actions or major abuse of some sort? Cold woman.
...agape love, especially when it is applied to someone who has hurt us in some way... may have been disciplined.. but has shown remorse.
If this person is truly repentant, we are under obligation -- as a matter of principle -- to extend love toward that one. NiteMouseChild molesters included? Rapists?
I think 'unconditional love' is one of the cruelest hoaxes Satan has perpetrated on humans to date. It is a total perversion of agape love which, by definition, IS conditional by virtue of principles. Since "God IS love", it is therefore a perversion of Jehovah himself.
My reasons for this conclusion:
1. Why doesn't the Bible or the 'faithful and discreet slave' use this term?
2. Why haven't we heard about 'unconditional love' before? It's quite a modern way of thinking. You didn't hear about it even a few years ago, certainly not when I was growing up. Must be another one of those modern philosophies. Manmade, yes - but could it be Satanic? 3. What are the fruits of this teaching? It seems so good and appealing on the surface. Who wouldn't want to be loved unconditionally? But it has caused immeasurable pain. Disobedient children throw it in their parents' faces. Heartbroken and crushed parents are told that they must forgive the pervert who raped and killed their child. I'm sure you can think of more. But of course the worst, "It doesn't matter what you do. God loves you anyway."
And there, to me, is the perversion. Does the brochure, "What Does God Require?" appeal to a person who believes in 'unconditional love'? Does it show respect for all our faithful brothers and sisters who, because of their deep love for Jehovah, strive hard to please him and bring glory to him by their faithfulness and integrity? With this teaching - why bother? God loves you anyway! Most of all, it perverts Jehovah himself, because it misrepresents what true love is.
How much more I love the expression the Bible uses -
loyal love. Doesn't that really say it all? DebB - The Grand JW who nobody ever liked anyway (added by me)"Heartbroken and crushed parents are told that they must forgive the pervert who raped and killed their child." -actually, this is a good point.........and is totally contrary to what NiteMouse posted above her.
the very purest emotion of love i have ever felt as a human for a human was the moment i looked into my newborns' eyes for the first time. that feeling is my definition of unconditional love. you're not thinking "what if you grow up and leave the truth...what if you turn out rotten...what if you become an apostate" at that moment. what i feel for my children has never changed--that feeling has remained at the core of my feelings for them, despite disappointments. shelby
"you're not thinking "what if you grow up and leave the truth...what if you turn out rotten...what if you become an apostate" at that moment."
TWO of the three things which could stop her love for her child are the child leaving the truth or becoming an apostate. Killer? Rapist? Thief? awe.............momma still loves ya!
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Odrade
Lost my first post.
Blondie, thanks for bringing this here. It just goes to show the WT will even brainwash the love right out of a mother's heart. I can't believe none of those good Dubs even made a comment about this one:
Thankfully, she moved up to Seattle several years ago so I don't have to see her.
Do I still love her? I try not to and try not to think about it,AND, I'm so glad that I'm not the only one here that picked up on that one as a disgusting example of this. It's too bad this thread had to come here to this DB before anyone had the sense to see the hypocrisy. They're all so proud of themselves for their "conditions."
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blondie
My own mother condemned me to death for just not going to the meetings. What love they show!!!
I mostly posted this to show that some JWs still believe in "unconditional" love although the WTS preaches that love is conditional. The other posts show how unconditional it really is in the WTS.
Blondie
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waiting
"Unconditional Love" ------- I thought that the vast majority of these posters said there was no such thing in the Bible.
They said it was a worldly phrase............as jw's had "loyal love", agape love - which means principled love to jw's, doesn't it?
I think the only way they viewed unconditional love was with their view of Jehovah. But, in return, they agreed he felt conditional love for them.
waiting
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Swan
This is a very depressing thread. Thanks for posting it, though, because it helps to bring out issues that are still unresolved. When I told my family that my love for them was unconditional and that my DA had nothing to do with them, my own parents told me that their love for me was conditional.
They just don't understand how pathetic this stuff sounds. They can't even reconcile their JW teachings with the love they are supposed to have in this thread. There is so much denial in this thread and they don't even see the incongruity.
Tammy
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simplesally
I just love that they compare *other* people to the Pharisees as *rule* sticklers!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH they need to take a look in their own literature and read their rules. Rules on sex, rules on who to talk to, who to associate with, that brothers must wear suits when giving a talk, that a sister may not correct a brothers comment with her RIGHT comment at a meeting. (if a brother gives a wrong comment, the WT conductor must correct it or ask another brother for the right answer!)
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Odrade
LOL @ sally!!!
if a brother gives a wrong comment, the WT conductor must correct it or ask another brother for the right answer!)
so true, so true. what a bunch of weiners. Scared to death a woman will be smarter than them.