Supreme Court Of Russia bans Jehovah's Witnesses as an 'extremist organization'

by EdenOne 95 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sanchy
    Sanchy

    But we have to remember that WT does not ALLOW its members to access said information and education, that its members may then make up their own minds.....they forbid them to access any information that may challenge WT agenda......that is when I believe the authorities have the right to protect the public

    I hear you Diog. Its a tough pill to swallow. But ultimately I think there is a slippery slope when authorities start dictating appropriate faith doctrine (excluding acts of violence). I just dont think gov bans on the JW faith benefit anyone. It only tends to increase membership within the now clandestine community, it creates real pain for the members, and it removes universal human rights.

  • GrreatTeacher
    GrreatTeacher

    DJS, you are an insufferable bastard. ;)

    You also make some excellent points.

    It's easy to hate Russia because they are Russia. But, your analysis of their unique response to terrorism is very interesting.

    Maybe they got this one right this time.

  • DJS
    DJS

    Why thank you for the compliment. I've been hoping cake by the ocean, I mean that someone would finally use something other than puppy monkey baby, I mean dick ass elder, in their response. I will consider insufferable bastard as a first attempt. YAY!

    I've suggested on several occasions that the cerebrally challenged glutea maxima would buy a thesaurus to assist them in rheir creative endeavors. I even gave them a hint where to find one - between the brontosaurus and the tyrannasaurus.

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow
    Sanchy: I just dont think gov bans on the JW faith benefit anyone.

    Well...it will benefit those Russian JWs who are pulled into the WTS' ridiculous doctrine about blood. It will benefit Russian medical professionals who wouldn't have to sit by and watch their patients die needlessly. It will benefit all the children whose mothers need blood - those children will have a chance to grow up with a mother. It will benefit families who have a loved one that can now live instead of die.

    *I posted the following on a thread that Lee started concerning the WT's blood ban and Russia's ban against them but I will move it here because it is pertinent to this thread too...

    Lee: In a move that will certainly be carefully analyzed, the Russian Supreme Court has upheld a lower court ban on Jehovah's Witnesses, in large part due to their controversial policy on the remaining prohibition of whole blood and some blood products that remain essential in certain emergency situations and conditions.

    I think that the blood ban is where the Russian courts are "drawing a line in the sand".

    In spite of all the hype and publicity concerning the distribution of "extremist" literature and the incidents of JWs breaking the law by trying to convert others, the blood ban is certainly a large reason as to why the JWs are facing a ban in Russia.

    DOCTORS IN COURT: "JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES DIED AFTER REFUSING BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS"



    Two doctors were summoned into court as witnesses in order to learn whether religious convictions have affected the state of health of Jehovist patients and whether they could be the cause of the death of patients.

    A toxicologist from the Stary Oskol city hospital described how in 2001 a man and his wife who had been poisoned by toadstools were brought to her department. The husband, who was in critical condition, immediately had a blood transfusion in order to cleanse his organism from toxins. But the woman, who felt better than her spouse, refused hemosorption and plasmapharesis.

    "The patient was conscious and she herself signed documents refusing blood transfusion.An attorney visited her and persuaded the Jehovist not to consent to these medical procedures and he promised to move her to Moscow where there is a hospital with equipment that permits cleansing the organism of poison without blood transfusion. The husband, who is not a member of the congregation, tried to persuade his wife to do everything that the doctors were recommending, but she was unmoved.The lawyer, who promised help, did not visit the next day. The woman was not moved to the capital hospital. In the end, she died from necrosis of the liver.

    "At the last moment, the woman nevertheless agreed to one of the procedures, but it was already too late. In principle, members of the congregation could have moved her to the capital by air ambulance, or have brought other equipment into our hospital which permits cleansing the organism without transfusion. But they did not do this, although the lawyer had promised. In our turn, we were not able to do anything, since we treat with the equipment that we have. And in our city hospital it is possible to remove poison from an organism only by means of pumping the stomach and transfusing blood. This incident made a very strong impression on me. After all, I could have helped this woman at the time, but I was not able to. She refused the transfusion and she died in torment, being conscious all the time," the doctor toxicologist related this sad story.

    In the above case, it is telling that the JW lawyer was involved and promised the patient alternative medical care. That alternative care did not happen, the JW congregation was unable to give the support she expected - the WT's promises were empty.


  • Sanchy
    Sanchy

    Orphancrow, think back to when you were a JW (if u were ever one in the past). Would a gov ban have made u accept a blood transfusion had u needed one?

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Two things...

    ....if Russia refers to the WTS as an "extremist group", well... call a spade a spade, and...

    ...it takes a repressive regime to know a repressive regime (and no, the irony is not lost on me)...

    I don't know if any other subject has polarized the XJW community more than this one.

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow
    sanchy: Would a gov ban have made u accept a blood transfusion had u needed one?

    Yes.

    And my son would have received blood when he needed it.

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen
    think back to when you were a JW (if u were ever one in the past). Would a gov ban have made u accept a blood transfusion had u needed one?

    Not after I had been indoctrinated from birth.

    But without the Watchtower indoctrination and false information, I most likely would have accepted blood like any other person (including almost all Christians)

    How many JW would refuse blood without being told to do so by Watchtower Inc.? Without being pressured by elders and Hospital Contact Gestapo Committees? Without fear of being shunned by all friends and family?

    My guess: almost none.

    Just like nowadays almost no JW would refuse an organ transplant on religious reasons, but some decades ago almost all of them would have...because Watchtower told them so.


    There is a big difference between an individual's conscience and rules and policies put in place by an organization.

    Already some JW are secretly accepting blood when needed. Guess what would happen if tomorrow the GB tells all JW that 'God prefers you to stay alive to preach, so please accept blood when needed'. Most would quickly follow that instruction. Apparently their refusing blood has less to do with their conscience, and more with mindless obedience to Watchtower.


    Through Watchtower Inc., the GB tells JW what to do, to their disadvantage. If a government wants to stop an organization/legal entity to issue instructions, it's fully within their rights.

    And if individual people want to refuse blood transfusions, they're still free to do so.



  • Sanchy
    Sanchy

    Yes.

    And my son would have received blood when he needed it.

    Really? Ok, I won't doubt your words, as I don't know you or your circumstances. However, there are countless cases of JWs who have fought within the court systems to have their bloodless decision respected, which shows that many of them are genuinely determined to not let anything stand in their way of "respecting God before Men". If you were a "spiritually strong" JW once, you will know what I'm talking about.

    Not after I had been indoctrinated from birth.

    But without the Watchtower indoctrination and false information, I most likely would have accepted blood like any other person (including almost all Christians)

    How many JW would refuse blood without being told to do so by Watchtower Inc.? Without being pressured by elders and Hospital Contact Gestapo Committees? Without fear of being shunned by all friends and family?

    My guess: almost none.

    Just like nowadays almost no JW would refuse an organ transplant on religious reasons, but some decades ago almost all of them would have...because Watchtower told them so.

    I agree that this decision is one all JWs take based on an interpretation given to them by the WT. And I understand some might be influenced into making such a decision because they do not want to suffer the consequences put upon them by JW doctrine if they falter. However, to say that ALL JWs refuse blood because of fear of discipline is simply not true. You can't paint all with a such a broad brush.

    I personally know a few stories of witnesses who have been determined to not accept blood, even if it meant death and I know that these witnesses were not making such decisions because they were afraid of discipline; rather, they made the choice because they felt it was the right one. They accepted the doctrine the WT preached, and made it their own, and thus it became part of their "individual conscience". They had a genuine strong belief that taking in blood would be a serious sin before God's eyes and that death from refusing it would be acceptable, since they would surely return in the resurrection

    To claim that all JWs are superficial and not strongly determined to follow these doctrines is simply not true.

    Through Watchtower Inc., the GB tells JW what to do, to their disadvantage. If a government wants to stop an organization/legal entity to issue instructions, it's fully within their rights.


    But here's what no one has been able to argue against:

    -Since when have government bans been effective in stopping JWs from promoting their message? Specially when there is an already existing thriving JW community within the country. They only have a contrary effect. Look at authoritarian government history and see how clandestine JW communities have only been reinforced in their belief.

    -Taking into account the first point, now one must remember that these are real people that will suffer real pain. These are not just statistical numbers when it comes to JWs that will finally have to abide by the "rights of a government to stop an organization". Think if your JW sister/brother/son/daughter were in Russia. They will possibly face real pain. Persecution, possible jail time, public humiliation and ridicule, beatings, constant searches and scrutiny from the authorities, having to live in an "underground" situation etc.

    Now, If you want to try to justify this real pain/persecution with the idea that "well, it's for the good of humanity to stop JWs", then we must remember as per point number 1, it JUST ISN'T TRUE that gov bans stop JWs. They thrive under persecution, it feeds their message and fans their fire. History has shown this. (Look at today's daily text as an example (6/11/2016) )


    No matter what, two wrongs do not make a right. There is no way around it.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    I do get a kick out of the Russian media calling JWs "Jehovists"... :smirk:

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit