omg - what a laugh - edit and i don't have simonandcoftyophobia - almost choking here
P.S. thanks for chipping in with your comment, Cofty. Sane voices such as yours and Simon's keep me from going completely insane.
Living with Islam
by fulltimestudent 71 Replies latest social current
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Ruby456
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Village Idiot
cappytan:
Islam needs to die. It has no place in modern society.
Are you equally convinced that Judeo-Christianity should die as well?
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freemindfade
Village idiot without speaking too much for cappy most of us are anti religion in general. So yea, why not have a John Lennon imagine scenario. I think this world would be way better off without religions.
That being said. Islam seems to be the most vile right now. I know passive moderate Muslims. That doesn't make me ignore the message of the religion. Anyone who has compared the ugly stories of the bible and Quran can see they come across different. Quran is way more open ended. Ie do this. And the anger with Islam doesn't stop just at the jihad maniacs. There are loads of other problems.
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cappytan
Are you equally convinced that Judeo-Christianity should die as well?
No, Judeo-Christianity should just silently fall asleep and fade to non-existence. Islam should die.
I don't care about the history of the different religions. I care about right now. And the way it stands right now, Islam should f*cking die in a fire.
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fulltimestudent
cappytan: Islam needs to die. It has no place in modern society.
OK! But if that is accepted as the guiding principle, how do you separate the thought (which needs a mind) from the people?
Contemporary Syria illustrates the problem - some fighting for 'their' way, while more (than those fighting) giving up after many years of fighting and fleeing. It is likely that neither group is giving up on their religion.
And that was my thought in the first few posts. There are Muslim extremists in Indonesia. Australians have died through their actions. Some of these extremists have been executed by the Indonesian government (composed mainly of fellow Muslims). Indonesia is a long way from Arab lands where Muslims consider they are the purest form of Islam.
Let's pose a question, would most Indonesian Muslims be sympathetic to the extreme Muslim thought of Wahhabism? I don't know the answer, but suspect that many are not.
Wahhabism is centred in Saudi Arabia, but Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil, so it gets handled with kid gloves (not boxing gloves) by the western Hegemon.
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freemindfade: I do believe all religions are BS
I agree (you may have noticed) but billions do not. But adherents belong to one of two groups (to generalise). They are either active or passive. You can see that divide clearly in most JW congregations. In my 40 year experience, I noted that at least 50% are passive - they hardly understand the JW dogma, and have trouble explaining it, etc. (that can still be noticed on this site) but they have accepted key behaviours as important to their lives, and resist attempts to change their thought pattern. And that's the key to an answer for the problem, but it is very difficult to do.
freemindfade: I don't believe all religions are created equal.
I guess you meant, "have equal rights." And all true believers agree with you. Their own version of "truth" has all the rights, and the others have none. To deal with that problem the modern concept of "nation-states" assumes that no one religion can occupy, all the sacred space (grin). They must make room for all the others that have a presence there. Of course, the majority unit is reluctant to do that, as you may have noted in the history of both Jws and Islam.
freemindfade: I won't stick up for anyone's religion, I wouldn't do it for JWS, I wont for Islam. I will only be honest about the results of each.
The best course. If there is a way through this present impasse, we need to be honest, calm and clear-sighted about it.
The current western hegemon has attempted to use radical Islam to achieve its own political goals. In one assessment, the contemporary rise of activist, extreme, radical Islam was let loose when the hegemon saw an opportunity to 'get at' their cold war enemy in Afghanistan, by promoting Muslim hatred for 'atheism' and arming the Afghani mujahideen, which led eventually to the rise of the Taliban, which led to ..... all the rest of the problem.
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freemindfade
It's less about equal rights. freedom to practice and freedom to criticize are not the same. People are making a huge outcry for simply criticizing a belief system. That is powerful. That's what keeps jws in business the fear of critics.
And all the using radical islam to achieve political goals... maybe.. although those acting out right now are being dragged through the mud for it, so I am not so sure that is true. In america it seems pretty scandalous right now to be anti islam. And outside the political realm, what about America's own allies l like Saudi Arabia? They aren't jihadists, but you know what? hey still subscribe to sharia law, that means honor killings and many other horrific things, also they send shitloads of money to the Jihadist... proxyextremism. That you don't hear about because its allies. The religion is the state, the state is the religion and the religion is bad for human rights.
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Village Idiot
cappytan:
I don't care about the history of the different religions. I care about right now.
I know I've repeated this like a broken record on other threads but...
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. We have in the US a very politically influential fundamentalist Christian movement which wants to revive the Biblical past. Yes, they are unknown thanks to a media that only touches upon the subject when they can sensationalize it but they are arm in arm with the Republican political/economic elite and growing in power.
They may not be into suicide attacks but they are into executing/imprisoning gays and politically disempowering all but members of their religion.
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freemindfade
Sorry village idiot. These people you speak of are amateurs compared to Islam.
Let me sound like a broken record. The central influence and theocracy of Christianity is not good but pretty benign. The nuts are on the fringe.
Islam is the opposite. The central influence is the nuts and the moderates are the powerless fringe that had no influence on the actual religion. Does anyone else understand this at all????
Christianity is on clear decline regardless of some inbred wackos. Islam is growing. If you will believe absurdities you can be used to commit atrocities.
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fulltimestudent
freemindfade: Sorry village idiot. These people you speak of are amateurs compared to Islam. Let me sound like a broken record. The central influence and theocracy of Christianity is not good but pretty benign. The nuts are on the fringe.
To say that you must ignore history, or take a very blinkered view of it.
First, in the past, official Christianity (to define a difference between the elites and the masses) acted on occasion in a way far worse than Islam today. Just a few instances for now - The European invasion of South America - from Columbus on, all in the name of Jesus. The spiritual terrorists of England (Protestant and Catholic) who, when the had the chance, burnt them to death. The Spanish inquisition, which refined torture to an art form. And the 100 years war and the thirty years wars of Europe which devastated Europe - both religious in foundation.
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cappytan
We have in the US a very politically influential fundamentalist Christian movement which wants to revive the Biblical past.
And their power is lessening day by day, according to the latest polls.
And, I don't care what you might say, I have yet to hear of a Christian group of any significant influence come out and say they are "into executing/imprisoning gays..."
First, in the past, official Christianity (to define a difference between the elites and the masses) acted on occasion in a way far worse than Islam today. Just a few instances for now - The European invasion of South America - from Columbus on, all in the name of Jesus. The spiritual terrorists of England (Protestant and Catholic) who, when the had the chance, burnt them to death. The Spanish inquisition, which refined torture to an art form. And the 100 years war and the thirty years wars of Europe which devastated Europe - both religious in foundation.
Again, I say it's not about what was done hundreds of years ago, it's about what is being done right now. Islam is a "clear and present danger" to the world.