Jesus, without sin and a perfect human being ?

by smiddy3 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • pistolpete
    pistolpete

    Earlier you assumed that the "minimum facts" were historical

    SB, I don’t understand what you mean by this? What minimum facts did I assume were historical?

    It seems that you no longer believe that being "deluded" is an adequate explanation for the events described.

    When I used the term “deluded” it was in reference to the Jews making Saturday their day of rest and worship and change it to Sunday, and to JWs not celebrating Christmas because they believe Jehovah disapproves. ---------Nothing else

    And I was not calling them delusional, ------------I was saying they were deluded, (big difference) which simply means; (deceived by false beliefs)

    Case in point, I don’t “Believe” (Meaning, I don’t have proof because God hasn’t spoken to me on the subject) ----that God would want any Jehovah Witness to be disfellowshipped and shunned by family, just because they celebrate Christmas. That equals being deluded or another way of saying it is; (deceived by false beliefs)

    As far as the 12 minimum facts you posted, I have no problem with any of them. And I believe it’s possible James saw “Something” and it’s possible Paul heard a voice. And for “Them” those personal experiences cause them to convert to early Christianity.

    without providing for any apparatus, religious, educational, social or familial impetus that could account for this proposed delusion ---------right in the heart of Judaism.

    SB, I think you have the word delusion—vs---deluded confused. I posted the definition for deluded above.

    Delusion or delusional is more of a condition or a disorder.

    I’m not saying they are “Delusional”

    A delusion is a fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.

    As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or some other misleading effects of perception as individuals with these beliefs are able to change or readjust their beliefs upon viewing the evidence for these beliefs.

    Delusions have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both general physical and mental) and are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders including schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression.

    Delusions are categorized into four different groups:

    • Bizarre delusion: Delusions are deemed bizarre if they are clearly implausible and not understandable to same-culture peers and do not derive from ordinary life experiences. An example named by the DSM-5 is a belief that someone replaced all of one's internal organs with someone else's without leaving a scar, depending on the organ in question.

    • Non-bizarre delusion: A delusion that, though false, is at least technically possible, e.g., the affected person mistakenly believes that they are under constant police surveillance.

    • Mood-congruent delusion: Any delusion with content consistent with either a depressive or manic state, e.g., a depressed person believes that news anchors on television highly disapprove of them, or a person in a manic state might believe they are a powerful deity.

    • Mood-neutral delusion: A delusion that does not relate to the sufferer's emotional state; for example, a belief that an extra limb is growing out of the back of one's head is neutral to either depression or mania.

  • Rocketman123
    Rocketman123

    All religions are structured delusions, composed upon ignorance and lies, but hey some delusions make people feel good and even incited people to have more human compassion for one another, such as the basic tenets of Christianity .

    The Jesus god was the most humanistic god ever envisioned by man, that's probably why the belief and support of this god still exists to this day.

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister

    FFghost

    The Catholics figured this one out many centuries ago.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

    Why bother making Mary free of original sin? If God can do that, Why not get straight to the point and just make Jesus free of original sin? It's just not logical!!

  • waton
    waton
    Why not get straight to the point and just make Jesus free of original sin? It's just not logical!

    Ds: right, why not even invoke the principle, during the original sin phrase, that the children should not pay for other's (their parent's) sins?.

    why not step in, for example and delay the first seductions ( I assume that Eve was very persuasive too, having good assets to back up her offers) until the first conceptions* were viable, and genetic damage would be limited to the original offenders? * I envision Eve having perfect sextuples after perfect sex, giving the same diversity we see since the mythological deluge. 3 procreating couples.

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    Just a point of clarification:

    Siddharth Gautama, the first Buddha ("Enlightened One" or "Awakened One") is not a god, never claimed to be a god, and gave specific instructions not to worship him. The Buddha taught how to end our suffering and how to gain enlightenment, Nirvana, to stop the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. When asked questions about whether there is a God or not, whether or not we have a soul that lives forever or not, whether there was a beginning to the universe or not, the Buddha refused to answer. The reason is because these things have no bearing on our gaining enlightenment or the ending of our suffering.

    Siddhartha Gautama died and was cremated. His ashes were deposited into several site around Asia. You can visit them today.

    I believe the Biblical character known as Jesus did exist. I believe that man was similar to the Gautama Buddha - he gained enlightenment around the ago of 30 and then dedicated his life to teaching people what he had learned. I believe Jesus' fasting in the wilderness is where he gained this enlightenment. Gautama obtained enlightenment after meditating for 24 straight hours under a tree.

    Gautama was raised a Hindu and therefor used Hindu cosmology to help people understand his teachings. Likewise, I believe Jesus was raised in the Judaic religion and used its teaching to help the Israelites understand what he was trying to get across to people. Jesus claimed to be a son of God. He also taught that were are all sons of God, that is to say - divine in nature. I believe the Israelites had him executed for this.

    I believe after Jesus execution there were opportunists who embellished on Jesus' story. Eventually Jesus was deified. Christianity was invented, adopted by the Roman Empire as a control mechanism, and imposed on the citizens as the official state religion.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    " Christianity was invented, adopted by the Roman Empire as a control mechanism, and imposed on the citizens as the official state religion."

    And by then of course it had evolved in to a very different belief System to the one taught by Jesus. and adopted much that was condemned by what he taught, and how he lived.

    Those who claimed to be Christian, followers of Jesus of Nazareth, were certainly not by that point, and subsequently.

    I think your equating the thoughts of Jesus with those of Gautama Buddha I agree with, plus I do not think that Jesus of Nazareth was anything more than a very great man, but that is a wonderful thing to be.


  • mickbobcat
    mickbobcat

    Its a fact like Medusa had a snakes for hair, and Poseidon and the Kraken are real.


  • Terry
    Terry

    If you talk about Zombie movies and ask, "Why would dead people be hungry? Why don't Zombies poop? Why wouldn't all of them rot and fall to pieces?" etc. etc. You would be demanding Real World logic to apply.
    We can't mix the real with the unreal.

  • pontoon
    pontoon

    Obiedience to the Mosaic Law was the standard that the Jews had to meet, and they failed. Jesus was supposed to not sin, prove the Jews sinful by not breaking the law. Two times Jesus sinned, when he spoke with the Samaritan women at the well and the second when he said let the one without sin throw the first stone. He was bound by the law to stone that sinner and did not, or maybe he knew he himself was not without sin

  • waton
    waton
    Two times Jesus sinned, when he spoke with the Samaritan women

    p he also spend 2 nights in that samaritan city (without the disciples). wt elders would have a bird if it happened now.

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