"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve." -Max Planck
Mind Body Dualism
by Coded Logic 58 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Twitch
I think that guy was just thinking on too small a scale...
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slimboyfat
Coded I think one of the problems with viewing ideas and other non-material things as epiphenomenal (or emergent properties) is that it gives priority to matter in a way that is unjustified and still amounts to reductionism.
In a materialist conception of reality all that happens in the world is matter is rearranged in different configurations, and some of these configurations result somehow in the sensation of consciousness.
However when you think about it really it is a two way system. Because not only does matter produce thoughts but thoughts also rearrange matter. For example it is certain configurations of matter in my head that coincides with thoughts like "I will build a wigwam here". And that thought results in actions which result in matter being rearranged into a wigwam. So since thoughts control matter just as much as matter controls thoughts, why call thoughts the "emergent property". Why not rather call our material world the emergent property of our thoughts?
The reason we tend not to do so is because culturally we see the world in materialistic terms. But it need not be.
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cofty
thoughts also rearrange matter
No they don't. I can sit around all day and think "I will build a wigwam here" but if I don't get my material arse in gear and do the work I will be sleeping under the stars.
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slimboyfat
There is no ghost in the machine. We are our brains. That isn't comforting but I can see no evidence to believe otherwise.
You don't need to believe in a ghost in the machine or in God to reject the idea that "we are our brains". This is precisely the idea that a growing number of philosophers are rejecting. People like Thomas Nagel, Mary Midgley and Raymond Tallis. I used to think "we are our brains", but the more I read about it and think about it the more problematic the idea is.
Atheist Raymond Tallis was a neurosurgeon, a neuroscientist and remains a philosopher and writer. His argument why "we are not our brains" can be found here.
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slimboyfat
No they don't. I can sit around all day and think "I will build a wigwam here" but if I don't get my material arse in gear and do the work I will be sleeping under the stars.
The point is that if you never had the thought in the first place then none of the actions or material reconfigurations could follow.
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Saintbertholdt
So since thoughts control matter just as much as matter controls thoughts, why call thoughts the "emergent property". Why not rather call our material world the emergent property of our thoughts?
Because there is no indication that you can have thought without first having matter.
Show an example of thought (algorithm) without having a computational device doing it. It has not yet been observed and in a tangible universe it probably never can be observed.
So your world view of mind over matter helps you how? What does this way of thinking do for you? What can it do for me? Help me here. Help me to see what you're getting at because up until this point it just sounds like a glorious waste of time.
By the way I do believe in mind over matter: If one doesn't mind it doesn't matter.
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breakfast of champions
Right now I believe in stomach/digestion dualism.
Something I ate last night is really bothering me.
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John_Mann
Materialism is a dead-end hypothesis. Because ultimately it must affirm the conscious mind simply not exist at all (eliminative materialism). But I think it's an absurd to deny the existence of consciousness. It certainly exists. Ironically the materialistic view it's very close to Buddhism. -
cofty
I think it's an absurd to deny the existence of consciousness - John
I have never encountered anybody who denies consciousness.
That is different from saying that consciousness is a property of our brains.
if you never had the thought in the first place then none of the actions or material reconfigurations could follow. - SBF
Do insects have to think about the things they build?