Mind Body Dualism

by Coded Logic 58 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  John_Mann

  I suppose a good start would be to ask you do you think the electrochemical reactions in our brains influence our thoughts? And do you think that, when we change the chemistry in the brain, it changes how we think (e.g. drinking coffee, alcohol, hallucinogens, etc).

  The same could be said if you change the circuitry of a radio/TV receiver. Every change you do in it would alter the broadcasting and you could assume the device itself is broadcasting. This is called the "brain as an antenna" argument.
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  slimboyfat

  If the sense we have that we have a self is just an illusion, then who or what exactly is it that has been fooled?
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  Coded Logic

  If our brains are just "receivers" picking up consciousness from somewhere else - is there anyway we could ever verify or falsify such a hypothesis?

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/288811/science-stoppers
  
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  slimboyfat

  You are arguing against dualism. Saying that either the self is an illusion or else it's a ghost or a projection from "elsewhere". But it actually seems to be neither. The self is real but neither is it a ghost. Did you take a look at Raymond Tallis of "why we are not our brains"?
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  John_Mann

  I have no idea. We are not in the scientific realm anymore, we are talking about metaphysics.
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  Coded Logic

  Science uses metaphysics to form hypotheses and come up with ways to test them. In turn, we use scientific findings to inform our metaphysics.

  met·a·phys·ics

  ˌmedəˈfiziks/

  noun

  1. the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.
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  John_Mann

  The development of strong AI will shed some light upon this. Maybe there is something like consciousness waves. I like the panpsychism hypothesis. I'm not advocating the existence of souls or the Christian God. I dont think an individual can exist forever because even in our lifetime we change drastically. But I think to be possible to have a conscious existence without clinical death. And I think it's possible to retrieve consciousness of dead people. In this universe nothing lasts forever but nothing is forever lost. I really think we are in a kind of simulation. And I don't trash the possibility of this universe had been intentionally created.
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  slimboyfat

  I like panpsychism too.

  Some have made the point that scientists used to believe that living things were made of different stuff from non-living things. Vitalism it's now called, completely discarded. But you can see why it was compelling at the time.

  So might something similar being going on with consciousness? Like I said above there are gradations of consciousness. A human plans his actions where an insect does not. I think an ape or a dog is more conscious than a snail or a wasp. And a wasp is more conscious than a daffodil. Is a daffodil also more conscious than a rock? Maybe there is no clear line. Just as living and non-living consists of the same stuff, consciousness is a property shared by all things at some level. I don't think many agree with this possibility.
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  Coded Logic

  I too agree that consciousness is most likely a matter of degree. That is to say, the more processing power an organism has the more its potential for a higher level of consciousness. Animals that are highly sentient consistently have brains with large numbers of connections and high neuronal densities (octopods, dolphins, crows, elephants, etc).

  Which is why I'd be really surprised if we ever found out plants were conscious. They have very few connections in their nervous system and even something like a large maple tree with it's vast array of solar collectors (leaves) only generates about 200 millivolts of energy for the entire organism. Whereas something like the human brain all by itself consumes 12 volts (12,000 millivolts) to say nothing of the power requirements for the rest of our metabolism necessary to keep our brains functioning.

  If we ever do bump into an advanced alien civilization I think there are some predictions we can make. That they will have a predatory past (meat is the food source with the highest energy content), they will have highly articulate digits/antenna/arms/legs/tentacles/whatever (necessary for building and using tools), and will come from a high oxygen non-aquatic environment (access to fire is also necessary for tool building).