Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman 103 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Disillusioned JW

For those who believe that the Bible reveals that Jesus is the Archangel or any other angel, how do you reconcile that belief with Hebrews chapter one?
Notice that Hebrews 1:4 says that the Son has become better than the angels. How can Jesus be angel, even the Archangel Michael, if Jesus has become better than ALL the angels?
Note that Hebrews 1:6 says that ALL of God's angels are to worship (or do obeisance) to God's Firstborn Son. [Note that in Hebrews 1:6 Paul is quoting from the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy 32:43 (which is in harmony with the manuscripts found at Qumran by the Dead Sea, in contrast to the Masoretic Hebrew text). For examples of the quote from the Septuagint, see the footnote to Deuteronomy 32:43 in the 1951-1960 NWT, the 1971 NWT, and in the 1984 Reference NWT (and also the scripture cross-reference to the LXX in the 1951-1960, 1971, and 1984 editions of the NWT) and notice that it says "let all the angels of God worship him" - they do not say "do obeisance" in the footnote for that verse. The Augmented Third Edition of The New Oxford Annotated Bible edition of the NRSV (which says "all you gods" in Deut. 32:43) says "All you gods, the divine council (v. 8n.; Ps 29.1), probably removed from the received Heb text because of the conflict with monotheism (see v v. 8-9n.)." This is one of the evidences that the NT writers relied more upon the wording of the Greek Septuagint (and/or Hebrew texts consistent the Qumran scrolls) instead of the received/traditional Massretic Hebrew text. As a result, Christian Bibles probably should be translating their OT from the Greek Septuagint instead of the Massoretic Hebrew text.]
Notice that 1:7-8 make a contrast between angels and the Son. Contrast the NWT translation of Hebrews 1:8 with that of the KJV, ASV, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, and other Bibles. Read Psalms 45:6-7 in the NWT and compare that with the translation of those verses in the KJV, ASV, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, and other Bibles. Most of the non-NWT English Bibles instead of saying "God is your throne" say "Your throne, O God". [However at Psalms 45:6 the REB does say "God has enthroned you" instead, but at Hebrews 1:8 it does say "Your throne, O God".]
How do you explain 2:5 (in 1984 NWT) which says "it was not angels that God subjected the inhabited earth to come"?
Fisherman

DJW
JW..0rg has an explanation and that is that. But Basically there are plenty of other verses showing Jesus praying and inferior to the Almighty who has never been seen, cannot be killed etc.. so I don’t want to rehash what wt has been publishing for a century.
Disillusioned JW

Fisherman that is fine if you don't want to rehash matters in reply to me and I even am glad you don't want to want rehash matters to me. That is largely because I no longer agree with much of the WTS' so-called scholarship. I have adopted some of the scholarship of evangelicals, of theologically liberal biblical scholars, and even some agnostic scholars and some atheist scholars (such as of Bart Denton Ehrman, who is an agnostic atheist scholar and former fundamentalist Christian).
My post wasn't just addressed to you but also to the others in this topic thread who say that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
I am familiar with many of the WTS' arguments since I was raised as a JW from infancy, was baptized as a JW in the early 1980s while a teenager, became a ministerial servant at age 19 in the latter 1980s shortly after entering university in pursuit a Bachelor of Science degree (which I later obtained), and years later even gave some Sunday public talks while being a ministerial servant. I also was a regular pioneer for nearly 3 years. But, in the year 1995 I started becoming seriously disillusioned with the WTS/JW religion, and eventually (in about 2010) I became a positive/strong atheist.
My primary point in this topic thread was not that Jesus is God (though I did comment on two verses seemingly claiming that Jesus is God) or equal to God, but to show that the Letter to the Hebrews very clearly makes the case that Jesus is no angel and thus is not Michael the Archangel, even if that case contradicts some other parts of the Bible (and with Philo of Alexandria). The Bible does contradict itself at times.
In my prior post I said that in Hebrews Paul quoted the OT, but I probably shouldn't have said that Paul was one who made the quote. The WT (and some other Christian groups, as well as the title used in the KJV) had taught me that Paul wrote Hebrews, but while I was an independent Christian I learned that modern critical scholars of the Bible say that the author of Hebrews is anonymous. The ARV and ASV, which are translated from better and older manuscripts than those used by the KJV, do not say "Paul" in the title of the Letter to the Hebrews.
Sea Breeze

But Basically there are plenty of other verses showing Jesus praying and inferior to the Almighty
Christians have always maintained, as they do now, that Jesus was BOTH man (inferior) and God at the same time. Scriptures are exceedingly clear about this.
Only the Spirit portion of Jesus' being was God. His body was same as us. Like us, Jesus had a spirit, body and soul. However, his spirit was the indivisible essence of God, So, it can rightly be said that Jesus was both God and Man at the same time.

Sometimes Jesus spoke as a man, sometimes he spoke as God. Both are true. Does this make sense to you Fisherman?
Here's all three parts of man listed in scripture (twice):

1. 1 Thess. 5: 23
2. Heb. 4: 12
Earnest

Disillusioned JW: How can Jesus be angel, even the Archangel Michael, if Jesus has become better than ALL the angels?
Hi DJW, this verse in Hebrews has been a puzzle to me but I wonder whether it does not revolve around what an angel is. Hebrews 1:7 (quoting from Psalm 104:4) says "He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." Hebrews 1:14 concurs that they are "all spirits for holy service, sent out to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?".
So angels are spirits. God is also a spirit (John 4:24) but that does not make him an angel. The word for 'angel' in both Hebrew and Greek means messenger, so the function of an angel is to be a messenger. It also says in the above two verses from Hebrews that they are ministers for those who are going to inherit salvation.
There are other spirit creatures that have other functions. There are seraphs (meaning 'burning ones') who seem to be involved in praising Jehovah (Isaiah 6:1-3). There are cherubs who seem to have special duties, the first mention of them being to guard the way to the tree of life (Genesis 3:24).
So, my conclusion is that describing a spirit as an angel is not referring to its nature (being a spirit), but is referring to its function (as a messenger/minister). While both Jesus and the angels are spirits, their primary function is different. We know Jesus has many functions which the angels do not have, so he is rightly distinguished from them. But one of his functions is as a messenger, Malachi 3:1 describing him as the "messenger of the covenant". So, it would not be wrong to describe him as an archangel (chief messenger) but, unlike the angels, that is not his primary function.
Disillusioned JW

Correction: In my first post of page 2 of this topic thread I should have not have said "1971 NWT" nor made the other reference to the 1971 NWT. That is because the 1971 NWT does not have a footnote at Deuteronomy 32:43 to the Septuagint, nor does it have a cross reference in Hebrews to the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy 32:43. I had assumed that it had such, especially a a footnote to Deuteronomy 32:43 since the 1951-1960 NWT and the 1984 Reference NWT have such, but my assumption was incorrect.
Sea Breeze

@ Earnest:
In Hebrews 1–3, the author sets out to demonstrate that Jesus is superior to the prophets, angels, and Moses. We’re told Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God (1:1–2), the Creator of the world (1:2), and the exact imprint of God’s nature (1:3). After explicitly stating He is “much superior to angels,” the author of Hebrews writes, “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you‘?”
The obvious answer to this hypothetical question is that God never said that to any angel. Rather, in Mark 1:11, God says to Jesus, “You are my beloved Son; with You I am well pleased.”
Note: Only sons are "begotten"... out of your essence. Angels were created outside of God's essence.
In verse 6, we are told the angels worship Jesus. How could a created being receive worship?

Jesus is "God manifest in the Flesh" - 1 Tim. 3:16 KJV
How could the bible be any clearer?

You got the wrong Jesus. The Jesus you imagine cannot help you because he didn't die in your place. But Jesus did.
Disillusioned JW

Hi Earnest. I agree that the "word for 'angel' in both Hebrew and Greek means messenger". I also recognize that humans are sometimes messengers. I thus see a degree of ambiguity of the Hebrew and Greek words which are commonly translated as angel or messenger. I also recognize that the Bible says that Jesus delivered messages - even the first chapter of Revelation 1:1-2 (NASB) says Jesus (by way of his angel?) delivered God's message of the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" to John. You thus might be right that in some sense he is an angel. It is thus possible that according to the meaning of angel/messenger used in some Bible books Jesus is an angel/messenger and that according to the meaning of angel/messenger used in some other Bible books Jesus is not an angel/messenger.
It is like to how according to some definitions of ape and human used by various scientists that: (1) Australopithecines are apes, ape-humans, or humans, depending on the definitions used; (2) Homo sapiens are non-ape humans or human apes depending on the definitions used; (3) Homo erectus is non-human or human depending on the definitions used and that even Homo neanderthalensis (which some consider to be Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) is a non-human or human depending on the definitions of "human" used. Likewise it is like how bonobos (members of the genus Pan, the same genus as the common chimpanzee) are non-chimpanzees or a species of chimpanzees (though not the same species as the common chimpanzees) depending on the definitions used; etc.
Not all people speak the same language when speaking the same language. Do you know what I mean? What I said is an apparent contradiction which is not a real contradiction. That is because I was using the phrase "same language" once with one definition and once with a different definition. It was to convey the idea that people who speak the same language sometimes assign a different definition to some words than that assigned by other people speaking basically the same language as them. It makes clear communication difficult at times. People who think they disagree with other regarding various concepts are sometimes actually in agreement conceptually with each other, but are using different definitions for some of there words.
Sea Breeze

DJW,
Jesus delivered God's message of the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" to John
How could you possibly come up with that conclusion with a plain literal reading of scripture?
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must [a]shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy"
Revelation is the only book in the bible that promises a special blessing for those read and 'hear" it. The book of revelation is about Jesus Christ fully revealed, unveiled and in pictured in heaven as the Almighty. The word revelation means the unveiling.
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, [d]the Beginning and the End,” says the [e]Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Jesus is Lord
He is Lord of lords and King of kings - Rev. 17: 14
Disillusioned JW

By the way folks, notice that Revelation 1:2 says "his/His angel". Is that saying an angel of Jesus Christ? If so, maybe according to the Bible Michael the Archangel is the angel of Jesus Christ, an angel directly under the command of Jesus Christ. Perhaps that applies also to to what Revelation 12:7-11 say. Revelation 12:7-11 is describing a war in heaven and we know that in the case of human militaries there are chains of command.

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

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