Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman 103 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  myelaine

  dear Disillusioned JW...

  I appreciate the transparency and vulnerability you've shown in your last post.

  There are Hebraisms throughout the "NT" and all the books that are there, should be there. The early Christian community was mainly Jewish (using that term broadly to describe people from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi...Hebrews who lived in Judea). The bible identifies them as a sect (of Judaism) called, "The Way". Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22. In fact, after he was converted, the Apostle Paul was accused by Jewish leaders of departing from torah and thereby "offending the Jews" and he steadfastly denied doing so...that is how similar early Christianity was to Judaism. Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Everything in the Revelation would have been (if not completely understood)... understandable by harkening back to the "OT" AND/OR other source books available. Due to the fact that WE are this far removed in time and culture from the early community, the Christianity we see today (across the board in every denomination including JW's) has little resemblance to the VERY Jewish beliefs, practices and understanding of so long ago. The following video contains the historical evidence that shows the who, what, when, where and why about the dramatic departure from the Christianity that the Apostles taught, if you're interested.

  love michelle

  P.S. it's been a while since I watched this video and it's possible that the teacher in it, Natan, may not always speak gently...he is so over the deception of the ages. ❤️

  https://youtu.be/M76EAnAjaBU
  
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  jhine

  Fisherman you quote part of the start of John's gospel. Here is all of it .

  " In the beginning was the Word , and the word was with God , and the Word was God . He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made without him nothing was made that has been made. "

  So Jesus was not made, He made all things. So he cannot be a created angel . I believe that the WT Bibles add the word other into those verses to change the meaning. I notice that you stopped short of quoting that.

  However Genesis ( literal or poetic account of creation) says that God brought all life into being .

  A little later John says

  " The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us . We have seen his glory , the glory of the ONE and ONLY son who came from the Father full of grace." So again we are told told that this Word who because flesh is a one and only unlike the angels of whom there are many .

  Jan
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  Sea Breeze

  Myelaine,

  Most people are aware of Messianic Jews. If you are a Christian, you could go to one of their services and feel right at home. Jews around the world are accepting Christ in surprising umbers. Muslims are as well btw.
  
  However, there is another group of Jews who accept Christ as Messiah who advocate a number of errors. This second group is called the Hebrew Roots movement. They are not monolithic but accept or reject varying aspects of orthodoxy.
  
  The biggest difference between Messianic Jews and the Hebrew Root advocates / movement. is their understanding on how the Law relates to Gentiles, but also how it relates to believers in general. This movement predates Christianity as Dr. Johnson explains below in this brief & candid discussion.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85sisFAQbmQ&ab_channel=ProphecyWatchers
  
  DJW,
  
  Just popping in briefly.... will read your posts in greater detail later this week.
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  Disillusioned JW

  jhine, how about the verses in the OT which say the "sons of God" (such as at Genesis 6:2 and Job 1:6 [in both the NKJV and the in the 1984 NWT, for example], the latter verse even saying, or suggesting, that even Satan is one of the sons of God). Is one part of the Bible contradicting another part of the Bible in regards to how many sons God has? Wouldn't be more accurate to say that the Bible teaches God has multiple sons, but that the Bible says Jesus is God's only begotten son - thus meaning that the other sons of God (according to the Bible) were not begotten.?
  

  Since you quoted 1:14 I looked up it up in the 1984 NWT and notice I has a very different wording, saying "... such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father ...'. I haven't yet checked to determine which translation is better.
  
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  Earnest

  Sea Breeze : Of course there was [uncertainty about who Jesus was in the first century] .... UNTIL he stated on several occasions that he would die and resurrect himself after three days....and then did it.

  This quite ignores the substance of my post that Jesus was viewed as "the angel of Jehovah" in Jude and elsewhere. But, to address your point, John makes quite clear that when Jesus said (John 2:19,21) "in three days I will raise [the temple of my body] up", he was using a figure of speech, as he then wrote "when he was raised up [not 'when he raised himself up'] from the dead, his disciples recalled this". Scripture is quite clear (e.g. Galations 1:1) it is "God the Father who raised him up from the dead".

  Jesus is either using a figure of speech or he is God the Father, and sits at his own right hand (Ephesians 1:20). No in between here.

  Fisherman : You can read [Daniel 10:13] that [there are other "foremost princes"] but in harmony with all the other scriptures, the verse is not implying that there are many archangels.

  I'm not so sure about that. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that the Lord will descend from heaven "with an archangel's voice", not "the archangel's voice" which you would expect if there was only one archangel. Jews at the time of Christ believed in several archangels. For example, the War Scroll from Qumran (1QM 9.14-16) names four - Michael, Gabriel, Sariel and Raphael. 1 Enoch 20 lists seven. The fact is that while scripture only refers to one archangel by name, there is nothing to rule out there being more than one and Daniel 10:13 seems to support that.

  You say that "there is no other conclusion because Michael defeats and evicts Satan and only Jesus can do that". Disillusioned JW came up with an interesting suggestion that "maybe Michael the Archangel is the angel of Jesus Christ, an angel directly under the command of Jesus Christ". That would meet your objection, wouldn't it? All I am really saying is that we should not go beyond the things that are written, and while there are good reasons for identifying Jesus as the archangel Michael, it is not explicit in scripture and so should not be a core belief.
• 

  Fisherman

  with an archangel's voice"

  Poetic language of the Bible. Implying and hinting and not directly revealing identity. Such as the language of prophecy.
  
  
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  Fisherman

  —On the other hand, disguised as a snake, his identity is unmistakably exposed and revealed in Revelation whereas Jesus’s is only implied and other hints about Jesus leaves it up to the reader and student to conclude for himself but not with certainty. —So much for core beliefs about the interpretation of prophecy and mostly everything in the Bible.
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  Disillusioned JW

  Regarding whom the Bible teaches raised Jesus from the dead, please consider possibility that the Bible might be contradicting itself. John 2:19,21 (written after Paul's letters) might be contradicting what Galatians 1:1 says. Keep in mind that the gospel attributed as being according to John is the book of the Bible which makes the strongest claim of Jesus being "a god" or God - more so than another biblical book.
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  Vanderhoven7

  For God so loved the world that He sent his top angel! that whoever believes in this mighty angelic creation will have eternal life.

  Now I know for sure how much God loves me. He sent his BEST angel. Wow!

  But I wonder why the top angel said.: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered you under my wing as a hen her chicks, but ye would not,"

  Sounds like God-talk to me

  Knowing God and Michael means I have eternal life. Hmmm. but I wonder how I can say I know Michael when I have never talked with him or he with me. What did Michael mean when he said "Come unto me..."

  How come all early Christians call on the name of Jesus.

  Why didn't Jesus reprimand Thomas for blasphemy?

  The disciples were the first ones to worship the invisible Michael after he disappeared into the glory cloud. I wonder what they said to the invisible Jesus as they worshipped him?
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  Fisherman

  “God will GIVE him”, All authority has been GIVEN to me “God EXALTED him to a higher position”, A revelation… that God GAVE him,” etc…. —to say the least.