JWs Changing "Baptism Questions" Effective May 13? (page 6)

truthlover123

I like the indication- what spirit is org being guided by? LMS has a good thought there

nowwhat?

Well we know tony da turd is guided to- top shelf "spirits"!

hybridous

I like the indication- what spirit is org being guided by? LMS has a good thought there

Yes, I agree - good line of inquiry.

I think the ORG would like to claim 'Holy Spirit-Directed', (it is certainly implied to the JDubs), but there's plenty of reason for them to tread lightly here...

The more grandiose the claim, the more scrutiny deserves to be brought to bear, and 'Holy Spirit-directed' is quite a whopper. No, it's not INSPIRED, but they are kissing-cousins. Any semi-serious Bible student would have to vet this claim.

Where is the Scriptural foundation for such a claim? What is the basis for an individual or group operating under this 'Spirit-Directed' condition. The WT Org cannot tolerate ANY such lines of examination, so they are compelled to surreptitiously offer forth the general idea to be consumed and believed, but not too precisely or stridently, lest a dub start investigating..

lastmanstanding

A chink in the amour.

I made my earlier post because I looked at the change in baptism questions through new eyes. My new eyes are the result of establishing a US patent.

In a US patent, there are several sections and it is very legalistic. The most important section is called the CLAIMS section. In this section, you must be extremely cautious in what you claim and the exact manner in which you claim it. There must be “limitations”in your Claims.

The Watchtower Society, as you all know, has made claims. They have claimed to be directed by the “spirit”, understood by JWs to mean the Holy Spirit of God Almighty.

Now, the next most important section of a US patent is the SPECIFICATION. In this section, much more detail is provided that backs up the Claims. As you know, watchtower has the equivalent of a Specification section, the rest of their literature.

Claims get challenged. I just read the details of a Microsoft patent challenge against an individual. Quite interesting actually.

Claims must be carefully written so as to “anticipate” (USPTO wording) and their “teaching” (also a USPTO wording) must be”examined carefully”.

“Anticipation” is the art of writing patent claims such that you “anticipate” the challenges others will launch at your Claims, in court.

They will look for a chink in your Armour. You must anticipate every thrust of their sword when you write your Claims. Leave no holes.

Obviously, Watchtower has has a challenge against its Claims.

From where did this challenge hail? Was it nothing more than that which I described in my earlier post?

Or was there some kind of legal challenge, “in court”.

Time will tell.

Brokeback Watchtower

Watchtower use of asking these questions right before one gets baptized is to give them control of person who by answering in the affirmative is on public record as accepting membership into the organization and is now bound by the rules of the organization and subject to their secret kangaroo court system and disciplinary action.

2. Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?

I think the reason they changed this is to give themselves more legal protection as the term spirit directed organization might blur the subject and make a defense for someone wanting to sue them for being subjected to cruel treatment by their secret court system. They might have to prove they are directed by God's holly spirit which could open up a whole can of worms for them in court perhaps even making WT's claim that their baptism made them mandatorily subject to their secret court system. A person may say "I said yes to this question, so now they need to prove validity of the question especially with all the child molestation lawsuits they lost in court" the term Jehovah's organization gives them some wiggle room as Jehovah is a mean son of bitch in the Old Testiment that kills people at the drop of a hat for bull shit reasons.

I think this may require a little more looking into by some legal eagles to find the chinks in WT's armor??If a chink is found this new phrasing only started 2019 it could possibly phase out their whole kangaroo court system as a real legal liability and not applicable to any of those previously baptized into "God's spirit directed organization"

It would be nice if say some legal precedence get established that opens them up for some legal retribution for their fanatical religious tribunals where they have the upper hand and the members suffer.

hybridous

Claims get challenged.

Yes, they do. In the case of the WT though, they buy themselves some (limited) relief by a policy of no tolerance; labeling any organizational member who does so, an apostate.

What might be useful though, is to have this information readily available for any/all potential Bible Studies. Make the study conductor defend the claim as a condition for continuing the study...

It is, after all, THE central doctrine of the Jehovah's Witness religion. Every other crazy thing rests on this crazy premise.

It would be nice if say some legal precedence get established that opens them up for some legal retribution for their fanatical religious tribunals where they have the upper hand and the members suffer.

At the least, it might mean that no MINOR person could enter into such an agreement, since it is being wielded as a binding contract. Can you imagine the numbers, the trends, if no individual could be baptized before 18?!

Talk about hastening their demise. Stick a fork in 'em.

stillin

A Google search reveals that "spirit led organizations" are a dime a dozen.

The WTS not being one of them answers a lot of questions for me.

waton

how about even the "esprit de corps" , like the valor of the Marines, is gone. departure acknowledged?

truthlover123

Like the legalese conversation.

Getting back to the "spirit Directed" demise some more questions arise I think.

What about the elders qualifications? Are they no longervunder spirit guidance both when chosen and current? What about the judgement calls they made over the years?

Same goes for the ms?

What about the Wt and books and brochures? Are they no longer being written nor been written under guidance of the spirit? Since most of the articles date back to early 1900's- keeping same line of thought- 1914, etc-- are these also no longer and never have been under guidance of the spirit direction?

To me this is more than just one sentence in the baptismal question. The whole perception based on spirit direction delves into many stated suggestions the WTBTS has made over the years to keep the flock sweating it out til the end.

Where does this go from here?

hybridous

To me this is more than just one sentence in the baptismal question. The whole perception based on spirit direction delves into many stated suggestions the WTBTS has made over the years to keep the flock sweating it out til the end.

Yes, without all the supposed 'authority' that comes with "Spirit-directed", then the JWs are just another church, and a really shitty one, at that. They simply CAN'T back away from these claim of exclusivity without giving up the central essence of the Organization itself.

I mean, if it's not 'God's Organization' then why put up with all the burdensome nonsense? Regular mainstream churches that do not make such claims rely on other ways to provide value to the members. The JW cult religion was never built to do that. It has to rely on bluster and fear. They don't know HOW to mainstream and be just another church, even if they wanted to.

How I would LOVE to be proven wrong about that...but I don't think I am.

This is the ultimate problem with making such claims in the first place. Eventually, you'll have to make good on those claims.

Where does this go from here?

I suspect that the leadership would like to back away from their 'Spirit-directed' assertions (at least in print), as faaaaar as they possible can...without abandoning it. Like a lot of things, their success must necessarily rely on a very delicate balancing act

JWs Changing "Baptism Questions" Effective May 13?

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