Does the night sky prove the universe is older than 6-7 thousand years old?

by m0nk3y 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  drwtsn32

  I was going to post that I'd never read where the JWs said the universe (or even the earth) was only 6/7 thousand years old.

  True, but the JWs did believe once that each creative day was 7,000 years long:

  *** w51 1/1 p. 27 The Christian’s Sabbath ***A day in the Bible is not always 24 hours long; 7,000 years for each of the creative days as well as the rest day is consistent with the Scriptures.

  So for a while they must have thought the universe was less than 50,000 years old (I can't find a source to confirm this though).
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  garybuss

  Creator WTB&TS 1998 chap.

  2 p. 23 How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy

  The earth is also at an ideal distance from the sun, a factor vital for life to thrive. Astronomer John Barrow and mathematician Frank Tipler studied "the ratio of the Earth’s radius and distance from the Sun." They concluded that human life would not exist "were this ratio slightly different from what it is observed to be." Professor David L. Block notes: "Calculations show that had the earth been situated only 5 per cent closer to the sun, a runaway greenhouse effect [overheating of the earth] would have occurred about 4 000 million years ago. If, on the other hand, the earth were placed only 1 per cent further from the sun, runaway glaciation [huge sheets of ice covering much of the globe] would have occurred some 2 000 million years ago."—Our Universe: Accident or Design?

  Creator, WTB&TS 1998

  chap. 6 p. 93 An Ancient Creation Record—Can You Trust It?

  The fact is, the Bible reveals that the creative "days," or ages, encompass thousands of years.
• 

  funkyderek

  The earth is also at an ideal distance from the sun

  Aren't there nine planets in our solar system alone? Why are the rest of them in such crummy positions?
• 

  Euphemism

  So for a while they must have tought the universe was less than 50,000 years old (I can't find a source to confirm this though).

  Actually, I believe that they taught that the life was 48,000 years old, but that the Universe existed before then. They believed that the first verse of Genesis, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," referred to the creation of the Universe, and the seven creative days referred to the preparing of the earth for human habitation. (If I'm mixing this up with their later belief, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure they did teach this at one point!)

  That is, of course, contradictory to the Bible, which explicitly states that the Earth existed before light did, and that there was green vegetation on the Earth before there was a distinct sun or moon.
• 

  drwtsn32

  ...that the life was 48,000 years old, but that the Universe existed before then.

  That could very well be. I don't remember actually hearing that they thought the universe was only 50,000 years old, but I wondered...
• 

  drwtsn32

  onacruse: What is the speed of gravity? Instantaneous, the speed of light, or somewhere between?

  It's interesting to think about the orbit of the earth if the sun was magically removed from existence. If gravity moves at the speed of light, the earth would continue to orbit the missing sun for 8 minutes.

  Also, is gravity a particle or a wave (or both)? Light photons must have some miniscule amount of mass in order to be affected by gravity. If gravity itself is composed of particles travelling at least the speed of light, would it not also have some miniscule amount of mass? Why aren't gravity particles affected by gravity? (If they are, how does the gravitational force escape a black hole?) lol
• 

  onacruse

  Watson, so many questions you have! LOL

  What is the speed of gravity? Instantaneous, the speed of light, or somewhere between?

  Theoretically, the speed of light. otoh, Newtonian mechanics required that gravity be propagated instantaneously.

  It's interesting to think about the orbit of the earth if the sun was magically removed from existence. If gravity moves at the speed of light, the earth would continue to orbit the missing sun for 8 minutes.

  Yes. The same would be true if the Sun suddenly started moving away from the Earth; it would take 8 minutes for our planet to "feel" the change in gravity (i.e., for the gravitational radiation generated by the movement of the Sun's mass to reach the Earth).

  Also, is gravity a particle or a wave (or both)?

  Neither; gravity is a "field" effect, somewhat analogous to a static electric charge. When an electric charge accelerates, it generates an electromagnetic radiation that propagates at the speed of light. Likewise, when a mass accelerates, it is theorized that a radiative effect is generated. The wave-particle duality of these equations is only a convenient conceptualization.

  Light photons must have some miniscule amount of mass in order to be affected by gravity.

  No. Photons (and the so-far only theoretical graviton) have no rest mass. The 'apparent' effect of a gravitational field on the 'line of travel' of a photon is due to the curvature of space, and does not require that a photon have any actual mass. A massless angel flying right by the Sun would also appear to deflect fom a straight line of travel (assuming, of course, that angels exist within our space-time continuum ).

  If gravity itself is composed of particles travelling at least the speed of light, would it not also have some miniscule amount of mass?

  No. "The graviton, as yet undetected, should be massless and stable, and have a spin of 2. Its interaction with matter would be extremely weak, and it is unlikely that present techniques are capable of verifying its existence."

  Why aren't gravity particles affected by gravity?

  As a matter of fact, in a way they are! "...we may say that any gravitational wave is itself a distribution of energy and momentum that contributes to the gravitational field of the wave."

  (If they are, how does the gravitational force escape a black hole?)

  Because the 'gravity-on-graviton' effect is not a real thing...it's a purely mathematical difficulty (called non-linearity) that makes solving Einstein's equations exactly so daunting.

  One thing: so far, gravitational radiation has not yet been directly detected. One reason: in terms of order of magnitude, gravitational radiation is 10 trillion times less powerful than Newtonian (read 'ordinary') effects. For example, as Jupiter orbits the Sun it generates only 5.3 kW of gravitational radiation, far too little to be detectable using currently available techniques. Even the incredible pulsar in the Crab nebula does not generate enough grav-wave energy to be detected.

  Now how this relates to this topic...I have absolutely no idea! LOL

  Perhaps it simply demonstrates that we still have so much to learn, and that making unequivocal statements like "it must have happened that way, or be this way" betrays ignorance.

  Craig
• 

  IronGland

  What causes gravity?
  
  First of all, this is earth.
  
  

  The core of the earth rotates faster than the surface of the earth. Please wait for a moment to see the animation move.
  
  
  
  The core rubbing the surface produces tremendous heat and causes vocano ruptures.

  If you comb your hair, your comb becomes negatively charged. Your hair becomes positively charged. Now your comb can pick up (attracts) paper strips.

  The way how earth attracts objects is similar to the way how the comb attracts paper strips. When the core of the earth rubs against the earth's surface, the core becomes very negatively charged. When anything becomes very negatively charged, it starts attracting things from nearby. Therefore, conductive materials lie deep below the earth, while nonconductive materials flow to the surface of the earth. This created weight and gravity.

  How do we know that the core of the earth turns faster than its surface? By clues.

  First clue, water going down the drain whirls its way from its boundary slowly to the center. In the center of the whirl, the water's rotating speed becomes faster. So center of the whirl is faster than its outer boundary.
  Second clue, the water going down the drain's shape is similar to our galaxy. And our galaxy is known to have a faster rotating, hotter center than its edges. So could this mean that planets and stars also have faster rotating centers than their crusts or outer layers?

  The closer a planet is to the sun, the faster it orbits the sun. Therefore, the closer a matter is to the center of a planet or a star, the faster it rotates. That is why the more center a layer is, the faster it should turn. The faster layer rubs against the outer, slower layer causing heat and gravity. In the sun, friction caused by the rubbing of layers is very powerful and generates tremendous heat. That is also why the sun remained burning for billions of years, not by nuclear fusion or by hydrogen burning as how many scientists have described.

  The core rubs against the surface of the earth. That is why we have thunder. It's like a little kid after exercise, blood circulation becomes faster, and he wants to get rid of his excessive energy by bothering other people. The core rubs the surface of the earth generating excessive energy for the earth. The earth therefore also wants to find something to pass its excessive energy to. It finds dense rain clouds, which are very conductive for earth's electric charge. Earth then passes its energy to rain clouds throwing thunder bolts at them. Thunder hits a rain cloud and comes back to earth. This hit and run process also resulted a certain amount of energy loss for the earth. The energy loss is what earth wanted since earth has too much excessive energy. When there are no rain clouds, there is no thunder because there is nothing that's conductive enough for such action.

  

  If you don't agree with my theory, let me ask you a question to give you a brain exercise. How come a planet is round? Who made it round? Is it because that different layers of a planet rub against each other for billions of years, the planet rounded itself out?
  
  What about the sun? How come the sun is so hot? What kept it burning? Is it because the sun has billions of layers which constantly rub against each other causing the sun to burn like that? Give yourself some brain exercise.

  If the layers of earth do not rub against each other, where did vocanos and thunder come from?

  Hey think of it this way. We are nothing comparing to earth. We are dusts. Earth is a giant ball attracting dusts from all sides. Earth's static charge is enough to attract dusts like us.
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  Big Tex

  Gravity: not just a good idea. It's the law.
• 

  drwtsn32

  Thanks ona... I find this all very interesting. I have not had any physics courses beyond the one in high school, so I appreciate your insights.

  We have one of the LIGO detectors here at Hanford. Maybe we should set up a field trip.