Want to help my JW friend

by wannahelp 23 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  teejay

  hello wanna,

  if it were me, i'd read XJWBill's post again. in fact, i'd probably
  print it out and read it often. it has tons of good advice for people
  in your position.

  -- i wondered when reading your top post whether you were male
  or female. it makes a difference when it comes to what course you
  may want to take.

  -- you have mentioned suicide more than once. it's a little unsettling.
  rhetorical question: does your JW friend seem to be the type to do
  something like that? i know it's often hard to see coming, but you
  seem to already be thinking along these lines.

  -- you are correct about the conditional aspect of JW relationships
  and this cannot be undone easily or quickly. your 'friendship' with
  JW is tenuous at best, and if you reveal too much of the error of his
  religion you may do more harm than good, meaning that you will
  surely push him deeper into committment to his religion.

  i was raised in the religion and spent more than thirty years as an
  active member. during that time i probably had one or two non-
  Witness (what they call "worldly") friends who felt like you do but
  had no clue as to how to go about reaching me. it may not have
  mattered, but i often wonder what might have been different in my
  life if they'd asked a viewpoint question about why i believed this
  or that, or did this or that, when there was no scriptural reason
  for it. i can think of many questions that i might have had a hard
  time getting past logically, but when it comes to religion and one's
  belief in god, logic usually goes out the window.

  be careful. i doubt you'll get a definitive answer to your delima here
  as well-meaning as we all are. use your intuition and hope for the
  best. and for what it's worth, thanks for being his friend. keep us
  posted, will ya?

  peace
  todd
• 

  wannahelp

  Hi XJWBILL (and everyone else),

  Thanks for all the comments..

  For what it's worth, I'm a 33 yr old male.

  I'm actually quite content with letting my friend continue on in his life, my crisis of conscience is over wether or not he can really be happy doing so.

  I have worried about suicide with him, but that really is me.. We even talked about that, and he told me I was worrying about nothing. He said he would never do that.

  I too have thought about the real motives as to why I want to help show him the truth, and why I'm continuing to go along with him to slowly let him find the truth without me confronting him directly (many books I've read say DO NOT DO THAT!!!).

  Everytime I try to evaluate my own motives, a few things pop up. I can say with certainty that jealousy of the organization is not the proper word, nor the feeling. I have a severe personal problem with anyone trying to run my life, as I live my life true to my own conscience, and always have... Because of my personal feelings towards others running my life, I am wondering if somehow my personal beliefs that you can never be truly happy until you run your own life is spilling over into my relationship with him.

  I also believe that religion exists to bring people together, and the JW take on that is insulting to me personally at best. So, I have wondered if that is a part of my motive.. Am I so infuriated that I feel I must show him the truth at all cost.

  The fact that he has started to date has alot to do with me. He told me a while back that he met a girl but was pretty much afraid to start dating. Without me understanding that there was a 'procedure' to dating, I told him to go for it.. He looked very lonely (I've always thought he was unhappy, and lonely) but at least now he may find someone to spend his life with, if he chooses to do so. He called me wanting to talk to me and look for words of encouragement a week ago, because both families were sitting down for a 'talk' last saturday night.. I have no idea what actually transpired, but I can tell you that it greatly upset him.. As he said, he's normally a very private person (He is) but when he decided to officially start dating that privacy goes somewhat out the window. He didn't like that, and called me to calm him down so he could face 'the talk'.. Like I said, the end result of the talk (as he told me) was that he now knows what they can and cannot do, and there are 6 levels of dating.. He is on level 1, and although the two families are treating this as a done deal (I assume he means marriage) his comments were to me nothing is a done deal yet, I want to slow down, I have alot that I want to do before I settle down.

  He has asked me questions recently like, "Do you think I'm brainwashed?". I replied I didn't think he was brainwashed, but that I could not comprehend why he blindly follows an organizaiton that he himself admits has made many mistakes. I wanted him to try and show me how he could think that way.

  In some ways I believe that he is asking me to show him the truth, but I do not know. In other ways, he seems he is trying to actually become a better witness... I guess I'm confused as to what he wants me to do, and just as confused as to what I should do..

  Like I said to him, it's not about me, it's about you and your happiness. So, if alot of ex-jw's tell me that while they were jw's (until they started questioning the religion) that they were happy, I will probably let him be, and just pray that he is actually happy. Because I know from all the reading and research I've done that even if I can show him he doesn't have the truth, the end result of that process is going to be devestating to him, no matter what his choice is in the long run.. And although I'll be here to help him in any way I can, that process may do more damage than good.

  I am impressed that all of you have said that after your DF or DA that you feel better. But I've read some gut-wrenching stories here and elsewhere of what happens when a JW leaves, either by choice or by a judicial action.

  So, therein lies my dilemna, and I'm looking for any and all input on this subject (Where is Fred Hall on this matter?). I thank all of you for taking the time to read and reply to me, and I will certainly keep you posted on what happens next...

  Thanks again for all of your time and comments.. Please keep them coming!!!!
• 

  wannahelp

  Hi Zev,

  Yes I'm a Star Trek fan, and have often in private referred to the organization as the borg..

  You will be assimulated, resistance is futile!!!

  Thanks for the humor!!!

  Hang in there, and above all else, remember, you now have true freedom!!! Sometimes it's painfull to make decisions on your own, but I believe in the end, I'd rather make a wrong decision myself than have someone else do it for me..!!! Congratulations on your new found freedom, and good luck with your 'deprogramming' efforts..!!!
• 

  SixofNine

  Oh Come ONNNNNN!

  First of all, you have made it plain that you have already shown him plenty of things that will in time lead him out of the org.

  So it is really a question of timing.

  Sooner is almost always better than later for a good thing. I mean, look at the experience of some a bit younger than me, here, on the board, who left as very young adults, instead of, like me, staying in for 15 or more years after reaching adult-hood. Take PLH for example, she has been doing drugs for several years now, while I am only now just giving them a go! Ok, bad example .

  But seriously, let's quit being wimps about this; it's all good. The important thing for him is to not do anything rash on leaving so that he can leave his family and friends as intact as possible, while still having a life.

  So if you have more "truth" to show him, show him. Of course you want him to listen, but it sounds like you have figured out ways to get him to do so.

  Btw, some people at least, like me, really could not be happy in that organization. Cognitive dissonance may work pretty well for some people, but it was sending me to my grave.
• 

  wannahelp

  Thanks for the comments Six..!!!

  I still haven't decided what to do, how to do it, and if he'll even listen if I do decide to really show him the stuff... But, the more I read, the more I realize that I may have already planted the seeds of dougbth in his mind, and if I don't finish it now, it will eventually come to a point in the future anyway.. And I agree with you, if it's an eventual outcome at this point, I think it would be better for him earlier than later in life..

  Plus, if it is an eventuallity, and he does decide to get married now, that will make it even harder for him down the road!!!

  Thanks again for the comments!!!!
• 

  LDH

  I echo most of the thoughts on this thread.

  My only other comment is if you are to do any good to this friend of yours, you have to show unconditional love. This si something JWs are NOT USED TO. Everything is conditional including a parent's love for a child.

  Let him know, regardless of his decision, you will not alienate him and hope the two of you will continue to be good friends.

  Hopefully in time, if it's right for him, he'll leave the organization. And you may be the one friend that's there for him on the 'outside'.

  As far as the marriage thing, I have seen MANY mismatched or premature JW weddings. You can forget trying to call it off, or questioning it. About all you can do is make sure he's 'ready for the responsibility of being the head of the household' and all that other shit.

  This is a very big deal for a JW man. Make sure he knows he'll be expected to:

  Be the primary breadwinner
  have his wife in subjection
  Accept if his wife wants to do it twice a month with her gown on
  make sure his wife is dressing modestly (yes, his responsibility)
  make sure the family gets to all 5 meetings
  make sure the family studies for all 5 meetings
  make sure the family gets out in field service at least 10 per month
  make sure he handles all of his assignments at the KH promptly
  make sure he never goes to see or rents a rated r movie
  make sure he schedules his vacation time from work for assemblies
  make sure he's able to financially contribute to the Borg

  And the list goes on. As you will see, the above are things the man has to do --mostly meets the interest of the Borg. Nothing really about making sure he's meeting the interest of his wife.

  Are there any brothers here who can give some additional insight on the man's responsibilities?
• 

  wannahelp

  Thanks for the comments LDH...

  Ahhh, that explains the real concern he had for 'committment' and responsibility... He was really upset over that stuff...

  As for the unconditional love, I've already told him many times (each time I do he tells me he doesn't understand that kind of love) that no matter what he chooses to do, no matter if he sin's or doesn't sin, I will always consider him my friend, and will always love him and help him in any way I can..

  He really seems to want to understand that, but because of the fact that he doesn't is why I came to the conclusion that JW's don't really understand unconditional anything!!!!

  And yes, I'll be sure to bring up all the marriage responsibilites.. He, after all, is well aware of the fact that I am reading apostate material.. (He even held the Crisis of Conscience book in his hand.. Of course, he looked initially like he was concerned that his hand was going to set fire <G>)...

  Again, thank you for any and all comments you can give me on the subject... And I have every plan of being here for him no matter what his decisions...!!!!
• 

  Preston

  Hi, I just wanted to say that I read your post and I am impressed with the diligence and candor you have displayed in helping your friend. I don't really have any grudges against ther organization despite what has happened since leaving so I think you will enjoy my perspective. When I started my active life in the organization it realy did create in me the kind of mission and zeal that has helped me to get my University degree and volunteer my time toward secular organizations. Nevertheless, over time I realized that my zeal was being counteracted by how repressive it was being a witness. It all led to the point where I decided to leave, which was very difficult for me. I did sacrifice 5 years of my life in the organization and even though it stimulated my spiritual interest it did not teach me what it's like to be in the real world. I think you have done an excellent job already in bringing some things to your friend's attention without being severely critical of the organization. Not all people, no matter what their station is in the organization, are bad people. Many of them are mislead, misguided, learning in part, or have a difficult time understanding the organization in context. Nevertheless, as you have stated, relationships are condiditonal in the organization. It is a very regimented lifestyle, and there are a lot of restricitions. The difficulty is emphasized bu the fact that this is something that one is expected to do for the rest of his/her life (this is the idea behind dedication and baptism in the organization). I've known a lot of witnesses over the years who have passed away and there were memorials in their behalf which tended to be oppotunities simply to witness to non-witnesses rather than offering a perspective on that person's life. I think that sums up a person's life in he congregation. After each memorial, the individual was quickly forgotten by the congregation with the hope that the departed would be in "Jehovah's memory" later to be resurrected. Personally, memorials were very hard for me to attend only because it reduces a person's life to a discourse. It's like nothing outside of what that person did in the kingdom hall mattered with the only people giving reflection being those that were never his or her friends in the first place (becuase friendships were condiditonal).

  I think what you are doing now is the best way to help your friend out. You want to let him think and let him make his own decisions (something the organization has a hard time supporting). Telling him point blank, in my opinion, will only make him feel defensive, besides you aren't trying to coerce him into thinking a certain way anyway. I have a lot of hope and Christian love toward your friend and I have a feeling that he will have a bright and prosperous future ahead of him. Tell him there are people "out there" that hope he makes a decision that will make him feel confident and satisfied in himself, no matter how difficult it may be.
• 

  wannahelp

  Thanks for the reply Preston!!!

  It is an interesting perspective on the issue, but I'm very glad you said it..

  Interesting to note, my friend on a few occasions has said to me, "I've often wondered who would show up for my funeral"...

  With everything that I'm reading from all the posts by you people, I think my friend may have or maybe still is wondering what it's like on the outside..

  He's re-itterated to me on many occasions that he doesn't understand my unconditional love and friendship.

  I also believe that he has tested that love and friendship on many occasions, and obviously he is still here...

  On one specific instance, he said to me, "What do I have to do, kill your dog so you'll get mad at me? -- My response was, If you do it un-purpose I wonder if god would view that as a sin, but I will forgive you because I love you, you are my friend, and I have no right to judge your sins anyway. I will still help you in any way I can"...

  Talk about a look on his face when I said that!!! It startled him to say the least!!!

  Again, thanks for the comments!!!
• 

  thinkers wife

  Wanna Help,
  Gosh, I sure would hate to be in your spot. Although, I must say it is very interesting to read how a person on the outside looking in views it. You seem to have an excellent grip on the JW mindset.
  I also understand your dilemma. I feel that way about the friends and family I left behind!! And believe me, I am not sure how to handle it either.
  But this is serious, because your friend is dating. I believe from what you have described he is beginning to see the "trap" he is in. As a person who was married to a fellow JW for almost seventeen years, it is imperative, IMO, that he figures out what he really wants before he makes that kind of comittment. My ex was abusive, despite the rules in the organization. And we were seriously mismatched. Are you aware that JW's are forbidden from intimacy before marriage? And I mean any intimacy with the exception of a little light kissing and holding hands? I am very aware that sex within a marriage isn't everything. But it is a definite part of marital happiness. And if your friend is willing to take on on the responsibilities that LDH mentioned, then he should also be entitled to have a healthy sexual life. Will he? I seriously doubt it. It sounds like both families are already starting the trend and putting pressure on him.
  I feel all the above posts are excellent in their advice. And as was mentioned by some, it sounds as if you have a good grip on how to make your friend think. Don't give up on him. I would hate to see him in a mis-matched perhaps loveless marriage, for the sake of remaining in the organization!!
  TW