King David's Three Choices (page 4)

JoenB75

Dubstepped,

Let us appriciate and and Adore Him for his grand design. Just saying

cofty

Let us appriciate and and Adore Him for his grand design

Does that include parasites like Baylisacaris procyonis that feed on the eyeballs of children?

Or that wasp that lays an egg in a stunned tarantula and slowly eats it alive. Giant nasty scolopendras that eat small mice alive. Nasty critters that crawl into various bodily openings and what not. To which degree we can call that God's design is very difficult to say. We have as good as nothing on zoology in the Bible. The Bible is concerned with covenant cosmotology and covenant creationism. God has apparently let evolution run its course and only interfered when needed to redeem. And that is pretty amazing, the Creator became part of the created (Colossians 1:15-20), introducing an unique "Bible humanism" (Hebrews 4:15). Of course it is an absurdity to imagine we can fully grasp God's plan and ways but we can grasp what God chooses to reveal to us in His Word. Now of course I am a spoiled brat seeing the plan of universal salvation in the Bible, whereas many other believers would focus on saving themselves and others from the fires eternal.

cofty

joan - Either god is all-powerful and all-knowing or she isn't.

If she isn't then neither is she god.

If she is then she knowingly initiated a process that led to the agonising deaths of billions of conscious creatures. It would be impossible to imagine a process of getting to this point in the history of life on earth that would require more gratuitous pain, suffering and waste.

JoenB75

Hmm.. the problem with life is that if it was not accompaigned by death we would be standing on each other and that would be more nasty than you can imagine. You have sort of made an argument that a God who did create / initiate the evolution of beings who were meant to perish could not exist (2 Peter 2:12). Most creation has it beauty. That some of it turns out bad / counterproductive I see as a result of evolution.

cofty

Joan - I'm not complaining that living things die. Don't be so facile.

I said - It would be impossible to imagine a process of getting to this point in the history of life on earth that would require more gratuitous pain, suffering and waste.

In other words life is perfectly designed to MAXIMISE suffering.

JoenB75

Culfthy. I will call you Culfthy now just as you call me Joan,

I know atheists define evolution as " gratuitous pain, suffering and waste." God might respond as did Gretha "how dare you"? He has some reasons for allowing things to run this way. I am very sure that evolution provides amazing things and also unfurtunate things. That is the way of life. Life is corruptible except divine nature.

JW GoneBad

Another account in the Bible that has always troubled me is in 1Samuel 22:6-23...where King Saul in a crazy & jealous rage orders one of his servants by the name of Doeg to kill high priest Ahimelek and his entire family for something very petty. Doeg doesn't stop there...he then went on and struck down an additional 85 of Ahimelek's under priests. The account at vs 18 and 19 states:

"Then the king said to Doʹeg: “You turn and assault the priests!” Immediately Doʹeg the Eʹdom·ite went and assaulted the priests himself. He killed on that day 85 men wearing the linen ephʹod. He also struck Nob, the city of the priests, with the sword; man as well as woman, child as well as infant, bull, donkey, and sheep, he put to the sword."

That was one hell of a senseless slaughter of innocent life in just one day. Why did God who these priests and their families were devoted to allow such a gruesome thing to take place?

cofty

I know atheists define evolution as " gratuitous pain, suffering and waste." - Joan

Firstly evolution is not about atheism. Millions of intelligent christians accept the fact of evolution. It is only Muslims and a small percentage if fundy xtians who deny the facts.

Secondly evolution is not immoral it is amoral. There is no moral dimension to reality. It doesn't care.

On the other hand you have the impossible challenge of explaining why the world that you claim was designed and controlled by an omnipotent god is perfectly designed to MAXIMISE suffering and pain. This is a dilemma for theists not for rationalists.

JoenB75

cruflty,

You explain stuff you design yourself. If you make a god in your own image, you can explain him very well. it is part of the argument of atheism that we should explain God. Theists shutter at the thought of explaining something as far beyond themselves as God.

You think the God of Christians is too mean for allowing pain and then add your own idea that the world was designed to MAXIMISE pain. Who told you that? Why did you capitalize it? Pain is certainly needed to feel and exist. Just as good feelings.Pain was part the Cross and pain is also used to lead people to God.

I never claimed the world was designed by God. Is that what you think initiated means? That is going too far in speculation. But in the control of the Almighty yes .

King David's Three Choices

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