Here's a view on homosexuality for you...

by konceptual99 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty
    I guess the observed and cataloged sexual habits of some 1500 different animal species are "abhorrent", then, huh? - Vidiot

    I have heard this argument frequently but I don't understand it. I even heard Laurence Krauss use it recently in a debate in Australia. What has animal behaviour go to do with human ethics? Animals do lots of stuff we would condemn among humans.

    It is also misleading from a biological point of view. Many species will engage in same-sex copulation when females are unavailable - for example when an alpha male dominates breeding in a harem - but will always mate with a female at any opportunity. The only known exception is found among domesticated sheep.

    Consenting adults should be free to have sex with other consenting adults of either sex. We don't need to use doubtful arguments to justify it.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I was also told by an elder (a few years ago now) that we are very close to Armageddon, and his number one proof was the fact that gay marriage is beginning to be accepted by "the world".

    It struck me then and it strikes me now how completely warped a view of the world that is. To believe in a God who is not moved to intervene in human affairs to stop a wars that waste millions of lives, or toruture, or slavery, or genocides, or tsunamis that kill hundreds of thousands. Human history plays out over thousands of years right up until the point when some regions of the earth decide gay marriage is a thing. And it is at that point that the God of whole universe steps in and says: that's enough! And he brings on Armageddon to stop the "madness".

    It's in conversations like that when I realise most of all there is simply no point discussing issues with some people. Their view on the world is so completely different that there is no reasonable point of contact to build upon.

  • TheLiberator
    TheLiberator

    Yes, I too, view homosexual acts as abhorrent. However, as a new Christian, I have learned (and still learning) how to show love to everyone and what it means to not judge.

    Here is the crux of the matter: Treating a person well and acknowledging a person's good qualities, does not mean I am endorsing a type of behavior. When it comes to homosexuals, the Watchtower sends a double message. I admit, it does create homophobia. But in the Watchtower, did you have a phobia of someone in the military? Did a uniform cause you to treat that person badly or avoid him? Not really. So why would I even have a desire to treat a homosexual in an unkind way, or perhaps simply putting on a "mask" of kindness? Why can't I be genuinely kind?

    A homosexual worked in a store that helped my wife test and purchase some products. The honest truth, he was one of the nicest people I met. We talked and I was fine with that. Again, treating him well, does not endorse the behavior. I don't have to make it my focus. It is not my concern.

    If a person asks me about my view, I would direct them to the Bible. In the past, everyone would say "you're not suppose to judge" . I couldn't understand this in the Watchtower. I now understand. God is the ultimate judge. All I can do is show the scriptures. I don't have to rub them into people's faces. It now becomes a matter between them and God. God doesn't need a third party.

  • James Mixon
    James Mixon

    It chaps my butt how "SOME" religious people use a book to establish their moral code

    while picking and choosing which bits of the book to use.

    Prejudice in the name of religion is abhorrent, wither it be prejudice on race, on

    women's rights or on homosexuality.

    It all stem from the same source.

    A question for believers,What book has cause the biggest division among mankind in the

    last 2000 years???

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent
    Cofty: have heard this argument frequently but I don't understand it. I even heard Laurence Krauss use it recently in a debate in Australia. What has animal behaviour go to do with human ethics? Animals do lots of stuff we would condemn among humans.
    It is also misleading from a biological point of view. Many species will engage in same-sex copulation when females are unavailable - for example when an alpha male dominates breeding in a harem - but will always mate with a female at any opportunity. The only known exception is found among domesticated sheep.
    Consenting adults should be free to have sex with other consenting adults of either sex. We don't need to use doubtful arguments to justify it.

    Cofty - when you ask, "What has animal behaviour go to do with human ethics?" The answer is of course, nothing!

    But you (for what ever reason) and possibly others who use the information now available, miss the point behind the information.

    The Christian argument, as perhaps first posited by Paul in Romans 1:26.27, is that same sex sexual activities are, "contrary to nature." As a deductive argument is not sound if a supportive premise is not valid, then Paul's argument fails if same sex sexual activity can be found "in nature," if for no other reason than the Christian claim that God made all things.

    If in "nature" made by God, "unreasoning" animals (2 Peter 2:12) who cannot (apparently, according to that text) make reasoned decisions, (and thus change from a natural use, to an unnatural use) are found to "naturally" have sexual activities with the same sex (either male or female) then Paul's statement is unsound.

    When you say: "It is also misleading from a biological point of view. Many species will engage in same-sex copulation when females are unavailable - for example when an alpha male dominates breeding in a harem - but will always mate with a female at any opportunity. The only known exception is found among domesticated sheep."

    I think you will agree that it is difficult to study the complete sexual activities of animals in the wild. And, in 'domesticated' situations (and, zoos) it can be claimed the animals 'natural' propensities are distorted by the unnatural environment. You mention domesticated male sheep as the 'one' example of known 'exclusively' homosexual behaviour.

    How do we know whether or not there are male 'wild' sheep that only have sex with the males in their species?

    Among wild examples of the Ovid genus, we find Ovis canadensis, known commonly as Bighorn sheep. Without going into all the details a zoologist describes the males as living in "homosexual societies," in which same sex courtship and activity are routine.

    Yes, there is also heterosexual activity! Once a year the sex segregated groups intermingle and mate in what humans call 'promiscuous behaviour,' during the rutting season. But what we don't know Cofty is whether there are individual males who do not participate. It is difficult to observe individual behaviours. But observing zoologists believe that some males do not participate in heterosexual activities at all. Interestingly male to male activity actually increases during the rutting season.

    You may interpret this example of 'wilderness' sheep behaviour as you wish, but clearly these animals are not domesticated.

    May I also point out that there are many human males that while likely 'naturally' attracted to other males, may also have (for one reason or another) have sex with females. Many of them have posted here as they are former JWs, who for whatever reason bought into this Christian foolishness and tried to live as heterosexuals, with varying degrees of success. Often sadly, the sexual needs of their wives suffered, but can it be said that they were "exclusively homosexual?"

    I believe from my studies that there are people that are 'naturally' attracted to the 'same sex.' You can spot them throughout history. But as a caveat, we must remember that so long as a male can get an erection, he can have sex with whoever he desires or finds it neccessary to engage in penetrative sex with.

    All this complicates our understanding or what we see in human and animal sexual activity. One thing though, surely stands out. Paul's argument that sex with a member of your own sex cannot be regarded as 'contrary to nature.' And that's why 'natural' animal sexuality enters the picture in arguments about human sexuality.

    --------------------------------------

    There are many more examples in the wild of animals that seem to be 'exclusively homosexual,' I'll offer another post on the subject in a little while.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    To those who wonder about the 'natural' sexual behaviour of the creatures claimed to be the invention of YHWH, may I recommend Paul Bagemihl's book, Biological Exuberance: Animal homosexuality and natural diversity.

    The book is really a meta-study of the natural sexual behaviour of some 400 animal species, in the that the author has read the research of many zoologists and incorporates and refrences their notes in the book. At the end of the comments on different species, you can find the reference to field notes if you wish to study the behaviour.

    Here's Amazon's remarks concerning the book:

    And indeed it must have been, since most scientists have thus far studiously avoided the topic of widespread homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom--sometimes in the face of undeniable evidence. Bagemihl begins with an overview of same-sex activity in animals, carefully defining courtship patterns, affectionate behaviors, sexual techniques, mating and pair-bonding, and same-sex parenting. He firmly dispels the prevailing notion that homosexuality is uniquely human and only occurs in "unnatural" circumstances. As far as the nature-versus-nurture argument--it's obviously both, he concludes. An overview of biologists' discomfort with their own observations of animal homosexuality over 200 years would be truly hilarious if it didn't reflect a tendency of humans (and only humans) to respond with aggression and hostility to same-sex behavior in our own species. In fact, Bagemihl reports, scientists have sometimes been afraid to report their observations for fear of recrimination from a hidebound (and homophobic) academia. Scientists' use of anthropomorphizing vocabulary such as insulting, unfortunate, and inappropriate to describe same-sex matings shows a decided lack of objectivity on the part of naturalists.

    Astounding as it sounds, a number of scientists have actually argued that when a female Bonobo wraps her legs around another female ... while emitting screams of enjoyment, this is actually "greeting" behavior, or "appeasement" behavior ... almost anything, it seems, besides pleasurable sexual behavior.

    Throw this book into the middle of a crowd of wildlife biologists and watch them scatter. But Bagemihl doesn't let the scientific community's discomfort deny him the opportunity to show "the love that dare not bark its name" in all its feathery, furry, toothy diversity. The second half of this hefty tome is filled with an exhaustive array of species that exhibit homosexuality, complete with photos and detailed scientific illustrations of the behaviors described. Biological Exuberance is a well-researched, thoroughly scientific, and erudite look at a purposefully neglected frontier of zoology. --Therese Littleton.


    https://www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuberance-Homosexuality-Diversity-Stonewall/dp/031225377X

  • cofty
    cofty

    FTS - My point about the rarity of exclusively homosexual individuals in the natural world is accurate. Domesticated sheep are an example of an exception and I would not be at all surprised if there are others. The fact remains that the 1500 species that are commonly referred to are more accurately bisexual.

    Natural selection favours individuals with high sex drives. When females are not available many males will have sex with other males. Males who will reject sex with females when available are rare in nature for obvious reasons.

    I don't want to gt into biblical semantics it doesn't interest me - but Paul's use of physiken has to do with what he regards as instinctive. He isn't using the conduct of animals as a positive guide to sexual behaviour. That is a very tenuous argument. Peter's use of the word portrays false teachers as acting on animalistic instincts - physika.

    Humans are a rarity in choosing exclusively same-sex relationships. Although according to the think tank The Williams Institute just over half of the 3.5% of the population in America who self identify as gay are bisexual.

    My point is that we don't need to indulge in tenuous arguments to justify homosexuality. Consenting adults should be free to have sexual relationships with other adults regardless of their gender.

    What non-human animals get up to, and the relative influences of nature and nurture are interesting asides.

  • steve2
    steve2

    TheLiberator, shock, horror! You knew "a homosexual" who worked in a store?! Wow! Did you check that he was a human just like you and that if you cut him, he would bleed and hit him, he would feel pain and that if you patronize him, he will resent you?

    I have crossed paths with oozingly nice Christians like you all my life and I don't give a tinker's cuss for your patronizing attitude towards "homosexuals" .

  • DJS
    DJS

    TheLiberator,

    Abhorrent? Really? You've been watching the wrong porn. I find the thought of 2 obese heteros mating abhorrent and I'm straight.

    Well, mostly.

    Your views are the only thing abhorrent about your comment.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent
    steve2 : TheLiberator, shock, horror! You knew "a homosexual" who worked in a store?! Wow! Did you check that he was a human just like you and that if you cut him, he would bleed and hit him, he would feel pain and that if you patronize him, he will resent you? I have crossed paths with oozingly nice Christians like you all my life and I don't give a tinker's cuss for your patronizing attitude towards "homosexuals" .

    Yeah! I know how you must feel steve2, but I think (if I've read your previous posts correctly) you also have a background that will allow you to see precisely what is likely going on in 'The Liberator's" mind.

    This study, summarised on the science web-site, Livescience, is headed:

    Study: Homophobes May Be Hidden Homosexuals.


    This image of two men obviously fond of each other, is inscribed:

    " An aversive reaction to photos of gay couples may stem from a person's authoritarian parents and their own inner conflict with sexual orientation, researchers have found."

    The article goes on to summarise the research.

    So imagine The Liberators probable inner dilemma, torn in half between his secret desire and the prejudice with which he has been inculcated, whether by society in general, or specifically by a church or his parents. The source doesn't matter, what matters is the terrible inner conflict he experiences that is evidenced by his hostile reactions. We can appreciate that each time he is reminded of his secret feelings, he feels this conflict, as expressed in the corrupted words of a popular song, "The ache in my penis is for you." So out of this conflict comes the type of comments that he made.

    Maybe he needs the guidance of an experienced counseller to work through his problems

    Link, for the remainder of the article: http://www.livescience.com/19563-homophobia-hidden-homosexuals.html

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