The Gospel

by UnDisfellowshipped 143 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Aguest,

    :)

    Your friend, you big goofball!

    Farkel

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    I "see" you, dear one! And by your works... you know that I also KNOW you! The GREATEST of love and peace to you!

    And... dear Gumby... by your statement... which I didn't read with understanding initially (please forgive me and accept my sincere apology)... I now also "see" you, too! You said a lot, didn't you?

    Well, please know that my Lord is EXACTLY as the Bible portrays HIM; however, the Father... is NOT how HE is portrayed... which is EXACTLY one of the reasons WHY the Son was SENT: to bear witness... to the TRUTH.

    Truth of what? Of his Father: for as he said, if you see HIM... you see the Father... the TRUE God... also! But in seeing my Lord what do you NOT see? The god portrayed by the "false stylus" of the [ancient] secretaries (scribes who copied the writings of Moses, the Psalms, the Prophets... and the Law).

    I'm tellin' you folks... you can keep searching the scriptures and putting your trust in THEM... although they have been copied and copied and copied... and mistranslated... and mistransliterated... and misinterpreted... and misrendered... and misused... and mistaken... by earthling man... in whom you were told NOT to put your trust...

    Or...

    You can simply go directly to the SOURCE of "living water"... and "drink" from HIM. For HIS water... is NOT poisoned... is NOT "wormwood"... but is clean, refreshing... pure... and the source... of life.

    I hope that those of you with ears to hear... hear.

    I am YOUR servant, as I am a servant to ALL those of the Household of God... Israel... even those of CONTENTIOUS Israel... (Isra - contender... El - with God)... who, to this day, contend with God, but whom He loves... STILL... and a slave of the One by whom ALL Israel... and those that go with them... will be saved... JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... my Lord... and the Son and Christ of JAH of Armies... the Most Holy One of Israel.

    SJ

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hello Farkel,

    I don't always like your attitude, but I do have love for you, because you are a fellow human being, and a creation of God. I do not judge you or anyone else.

    I will respond to your comments here:

    Farkel said:

    unDfd,

    That is so much bullshit that I can't believe some people think like that. I could demolish each and every little silly claim you've made, but I know that won't make a whit of difference with true believers(tm).

    I encourage you to go ahead and try to "demolish each and every little silly claim" I've made. If what I posted is the truth, then it will STAND AGAINST ALL OPPOSITION. If it is not the truth, then you will be able to disprove it.

    I encourage everyone to try to disprove the information I posted. If I do not have the truth, then I will find out, but if I do have the truth, then maybe YOU will find out.

    Farkel said:

    I'll give you a little clue though: the Bible NEVER said Adam and Eve were "perfect." Nor did it say they would live forever if they didn't sin. Read it. I have.

    Well, Farkel, I can prove you wrong on those statements:

    Genesis 3:22: Yahweh God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he put forth his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever..." Genesis 3:23: Therefore Yahweh God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    Genesis 3:24: So he drove out the man; and he placed Cherubs at the east of the garden of Eden, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

    If Adam and Eve had not sinned, then God was going to let them eat from the Tree of Life and "live forever and ever".

    Genesis 1:26: God said, "Let Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
    Genesis 1:27: God created man in His own Image. In God's Image He created him; male and female He created them.

    Genesis 1:31: God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

    God created Adam and Eve is HIS IMAGE, and God said that they were created VERY GOOD.

    Now, if that is not PERFECT, then nothing is.

    Farkel said:

    Furthermore, and if you want to be serious about that nonsense, the whole issue was about obtaining the knowledge of "good and evil." One has to wonder why God would not want to have his earthly children know such things. But he didn't. God wanted his children to be functional idiots. The "talking snake" (snakes have no vocal chords, by the way) wanted them to know such things. They learned such things, and the human race was toast as a result.

    Show me from the Bible what special knowledge Adam and Eve "learned" after eating the forbidden fruit. Also, it was Satan talking, who made it appear that a snake was talking.

    Farkel said:

    I did nothing wrong. I was just born. Neither did you. And I will die because of some cosmic bullshit that is stupid from the get-go. So will you.

    I can't imagine someone claiming that they have never done anything wrong.

    I have done numerous, numerous sins in my life (I'm only 21). Everyone on earth has done several sins.

    Farkel said:

    Your God is a moron and I spit on him

    I am sorry that you feel that way.

    My God DOES love you -- He DIED for YOU. How many people would be willing to die for you?

    Can you imagine how much love it takes for someone to die for another person?

    Now, can you think of how much love it takes for an Almighty God of the Universe to humble Himself, become Human, and then die, and suffer for someone else's sins?

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    AGuest said:

    UNDf’d has also transgressed.

    Absolutely. I am a sinner. I am a transgressor. I have done so many sins I cannot even count them all. I am very sad and ashamed of my past sins, but I know that Jesus died for my sins, and suffered for my sins, and was resurrected for my justification.

    Jesus has forgiven my past, present, and future sins, because He caused me to be Born Again, and I put all my faith and trust and hope in Him and His Sacrifice and Resurrection.

    AGuest said:

    And for those take exception to what Farkel has posted, he is speaking of the "god" of UNDf’d, which god is exacting and unreasonably and irrationally vengeful. This is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, my heavenly Father, whose name is JAH of Armies the Father of my Lord JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. That one is the god "created" by religion, particularly "Christianity" who themselves are NOT merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness so that their god, too, is not... but whose whole purpose is to enforce the Ten Commandments and place upon His sheep burdens and loads to heavy to bear. I wholeheartedly understand Farkel’s aversion to such a god; I do not know that one.

    AGuest, please let me know why you think my God is "exacting and unreasonable and irrationally vengeful" compared with your "god".

    Yes, I agree, God's Name is JAH, or YAH, or YAHWEH, or JEHOVAH, and also JESUS, IESOUS, YESHUA, YAHSHUA, JAHSHUA, JAHESHUA.

    Are you judging all of Christianity as being unmerciful, unloving, and angry?

    I do not know the "god" you described either.

    My God died on the Cross for you as a Human. Your "god" sent some other "god" to die for the sins of people.

    By the way, I have done some more Bible study, and I have found what seem to be some big problems with the doctrine of "Selective Salvation" or Calvinism.

    For instance, the following Verses:

    (Rom 2:1) Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, everyone who judges, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself, for you who judge are practicing the same things.
    (Rom 2:2) But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth upon those practicing such things.
    (Rom 2:3) But do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things yet doing them, that you will escape the judgment of God?
    (Rom 2:4) Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    (Rom 2:5) But according to your hardness and impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God,
    (Rom 2:6) who will recompense to each one according to his works:
    (Rom 2:7) to those who by the endurance of good works are seeking glory and honor and incorruption--eternal life.
    (Rom 2:8) But to those who are contentious, and who disobey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
    (Rom 2:9) tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that works evil, both of the Jew and of the Greek;
    (Rom 2:10) but glory, honor, and peace to everyone that works good, both to the Jew first and to the Greek.
    (Rom 2:11) For there is no partiality with God.

    Romans 2:4-5 shows that a person CAN reject God's kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering, and can choose NOT to repent, even though God wants him to.

    (1Ti 2:1) Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men,
    (1Ti 2:2) on behalf of kings and all those who are in authority, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
    (1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,
    (1Ti 2:4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
    (1Ti 2:5) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
    (1Ti 2:6) who gave Himself a ransom for all, the testimony in due time;
    (1Ti 2:7) for which I was appointed a herald and apostle--I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie--a teacher of Gentiles in faith and truth.
    (1Ti 2:8) I desire therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

    God DESIRES that ALL MEN should be saved! Therefore, anyone who is not saved, does so against the desire of God.

    Jesus died for ALL!

    (1Jo 2:1) My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if someone should sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
    (1Jo 2:2) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only concerning ours, but also concerning those of the whole world.

    Jesus is the Propitiation for the WHOLE WORLD'S SINS!

    There is a requirement on the human's part in order to be saved -- and that is the BELIEVE in Jesus Christ:

    Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
    Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame."
    Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich to all who call upon Him.
    Rom 10:13 For "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear apart from a preacher? Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, of those preaching the gospel of good things!"
    Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
    Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Humans CAN resist God:

    Acts 7:51: "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, you also do.

    However, Jesus did say that no one can come to Him unless The Father "draws" or "enables" him first.

    I'm still doing Bible research on this subject, and will post more later.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon
    I welcome any and all questions, comments, concerns, doubts, criticism, whatever.

    Okay, you asked for it;

    Is there absolutely any objective proof for what you are claiming?

    • There is no proof that the Genesis account is anything more than yet another creation myth, and it contradicts the physical evidence of what happed.
    • There is no indication a global flood ever took place.
    • There is no way that mankind could have seperated into different languages as late as the Bible claims it was unless eberything we know about linguistics is wrong.
    • There is no evidence whatsoever that the Israelites spent 40 years in the wilderness; not one tent peg, not one midden.
    • The Mosaic Law contradicts basic human sexual biology yet is claimed to be inspired by our Creator.
    • The Old Testament is, when viewed objectively, nothing more than a modarately bloodthirsty quasi-historical account of the history of the Jews, with the Christian God of love approving of violence, bloodshed, misogyny, ethnic cleansing, child murder, sexual slavery of minors, and is thus indistinguishable from the quasi-historical accounts of other races of people.
    • The face of a supposed god of love is further besmeared by inaction in the face of millenia of human suffering on account of god having so little self confidence he takes part in contests with the devil (whom he created).
    • There is no proof of a historical Jesus.
    • There is no proof of any miracle, afterlife, paranorma event, or spiritual experience that could be described as relaible and repeatable.
    • The Bible as it is is worthless as a method of determining ones actions as interpretation is so wide and limitless in possibility.

    Given these FACTS, it would seem all you are trying to do is market an internal delusion that you (being obviously special and clever and insightful) have some kind of message that would mean anything to people who do not share your internal delusion.

    You are wrong.

    If the Bible and the myth that is the Christian religion had any importance whatsoever, then we would not need to have our attention bought to it by delusional people on discussion boards; if it was important for us to know, there would be no doubts over factuality, it would be as evident and demonstrable as gravity.

    To consider otherwise is to allow for god playing games with people's lives and using something as worthless and mouldable as 'belief' as the currency by which is determined a humans worth; a contemptuously childish worldview, if I may say so.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    AGuest, please let me know why you think my God is "exacting and unreasonable and irrationally vengeful" compared with your "god".

    If your god is the god as portrayed by the OT… then that’s why. And I believe… on having read your posts… that you do have that one as your God. Although you CLAIM to also have Christ as your god. But if you look at the god portrayed by the OT… and at my Lord… you will see a marked difference. Why? Don’t get me wrong – the OT is speaking about JAH. However, because of the false stylus of the copiers… so MUCH has been left out that He APPEARS solely as a vengeful, exacting, unmerciful god. That is why His Son came… to bear witness to the TRUTH about Him. And if you “see” Christ… how he was… how he lived… what he did… then you “see” God. Not because he IS God… but because all things he learned… he learned FROM God. And all things he spoke… he was given BY God. And all things that he did… he did because GOD… did them first.

    John 5:19-22, 30; John 8:28; John 12:49

    However, these two are NOT the same individual… as I also believe you believe… and insist on teaching. Undf’d…my Lord… was “beget”. That is why he is CALLED… the “only-BEGOTTEN” Son. To “beget” means to “father” or “sire”. JAH… was NOT beget… He was not “fathered” or “sired” by anyone. However, my Lord was indeed beget… sired… by the Most Holy One of Israel… by means of His free wife… the spirit realm, Jerusalem Above… the mother of us, his brothers. If she is HIS mother… and we are his BROTHERS… then she is HIS mother as well. He… and we… are her “seed”.

    Yes, I agree, God's Name is JAH, or YAH, or YAHWEH, or JEHOVAH, and also JESUS, IESOUS, YESHUA, YAHSHUA, JAHSHUA, JAHESHUA.

    But God’s name is NOT all of these; HIS name is JAH (pronounced “Yah”)… with the “surname” of VEH… meaning “of armies.” How can “of armies” be a surname? It is a description… just as “JOHNSON” was originally to identify whose “son” I was. It is a description… as all surnames are. We have just chosen, over time, to make them proper pronouns.

    My LORD’s name is JAH ESHUA (“JAH Saves” or “JAH is Salvation”)… and his description or surname is “MISCHA JAH” (“chosen of JAH”). And this surname is IMPORTANT. Why? Because while it is true that he IS the Chosen One… it is WHOSE chosen one that makes the difference! If he were only Joshua the Chosen One… there are those who would try to make him the chosen of anyone they chose… including the Chosen One of… Zeus (hence the name “Iesous”). His name in English is JOSHUA (pronounced “Yah Shua”)… be we insist on calling him “Jesus”… from “Iesous”. Why IS that? For his is the Chosen One… of JAH: Mischa… JAH. Hence, the HEBREW word misrendered “mashi ach”… which, in English is “messiah”. Notice the “Jah” on the end?

    Are you judging all of Christianity as being unmerciful, unloving, and angry?

    Who am I that I should judge? I do not judge anyone. How ever did you get that out of what I stated? We were speaking of the god that Farkel denounces… the misrepresented God of the OT… and those who put their faith in him as being the True God. It is a FALSE testimony… and my Lord came to bear witness to that falsity.

    I do wish to say to you, however, that “christianity”… with all of its sects, denominations, non-denominations (which is a “denomination” – sigh!)… is nothing more than another false religion. TRUE christians are merely such by means of a choosing, which choosing is evidenced by an anointing with the “oil of exulation”… holy spirit. They are the Congregation… of the Firstborn… the Body… of Christ. They are “christ-people”… “christ-ian”… or “chosen people”… the MischaJahim – people chosen… of JAH.

    We do not need any other label or identifier… other than “mischaJahim” (n Hebrew)… or “kristos” (in Greek)… or “Christians” (in English) for the SPIRIT identifies us. We do not need to belong… to ANYONE… other than the Christ and our fellow members… nor do we need to FOLLOW anyone but the Lamb.

    However, if I begin to SUB-identify myself (i.e., “Baptist,” “Methodist”, “Catholic”, “COGIC,” “Born Again”, etc.) … and follow the teachings of these GROUPS… then I am leaving off from following the One who BOUGHT me… whose voice is the ONLY one I am to hear… and follow. (NOTE – I cannot BE a “born again Christian” – there is no such thing, for the statement is redundant – once I receive holy spirit… I become a chosen (christ) person… or “christian”… by MEANS of the life that is now IN me… holy spirit… which spirit REGENERATES me so as to become a NEW creation. I am… CONCEIVED… “beget” by God’s spirit… given me by Christ… which spirit grows IN me… while AWAITING such birth. I still have a body of flesh; it is when I put OFF such body and put on the NEW body… the SPIRIT body… that I am “born”… again. A NEW creation.

    I do not know the "god" you described either.

    Then I stand corrected… and offer my sincerest apologies for thinking that you did.

    My God died on the Cross for you as a Human.

    My God… cannot die.

    Your "god" sent some other "god" to die for the sins of people.

    Sigh! And here we go. My God… the MOST Holy One of Israel… sent His Son… the HOLY One of Israel… who emptied himself out and took a slave’s form… so as to become LESS than a god… and as a result, was EXALTED… by the TRUE God… to the position OF a “Mighty God.” That is why it says (Isaiah 9:6) that a SON would be born to us (Israel) and he WILL be called “Mighty God… Eternal Father.” The Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies… already WAS these things… but would confer such “authority” on His SON… the One who was the INHERIT the kingdom… from his FATHER.

    Once a prince (“Prince of Peace” – “Prince of Princes”) inherits the kingdom… does he not then become KING of the kingdom? And thus, do not all of the “kingly” titles now apply to HIM?

    Undf’d… all you need do is look at the “arrangements” in the world in which we live: they are based ON what came before – God’s arrangement of things:

    In a kingdom… there is a King… and beneath that king… princes. The princes, depending on whether they are sons or nephews… or cousins… or in-laws… are given “principalities” – territories over which they govern or rule. In THIS realm… they are called “lords,” and “barons,” and “governors,” and “mayors,” and “marquis” and “counts.” Each… has a territory of land… large or small… over which they are “sovereign.”

    In the SPIRIT realm… JAH is King. He is the Most HIGH Sovereign. However, He has given His kingdom TO HIS SON… thus making HIM (the SON) king… over US. But, he is not king… over JAH. ALL things have been subjected to him EXCEPT the One who subjected all things TO him.

    Because those in the spirit realm… the “wicked spirit forces” did not stand fast WITH him… they are being replaced. It was first to be done by the nation of Israel. However, since THEY rejected the very king who was to confer part the rulership of his kingdom upon them… he has offered it to another group… made up of 144,000 from among the sons of Israel… AND a great crowd from EVERY nation, tribe and tongue… which crowd NO MAN is able to number. These… rule WITH him… as princes… governors of territories… in his kingdom. Whatever portion… large (great)… or small (lesser)… as shall be given such one BY the King, Christ.

    By the way, I have done some more Bible study, and I have found what seem to be some big problems with the doctrine of "Selective Salvation" or Calvinism.

    There was a faster way to come to such knowledge, but...

    Forgive me, please. I do not know of “selective salvation” or “Calvinism.” Elsewhere on this board, folks throw those descriptions out to me, but I do not read/research the teachings of earthling man. I only know the teachings of the WTBTS because I once walked with them. Since them, the only “doctrine” I know… is God’s… by means of Christ.

    However, I take it that you mean you now understand the part WE must play in being drawn to Christ… and that is, drawing close to God. That is it WE… who must WANT it… and evidence such want by softening our HEARTS. And that it is NOT just for Israel… nor is it just for those who profess to be “christian” (as many of the latter do based simply on wearing a cross around their necks… or attending a particular church… but are false to such title as they have not yet received the spirit that CHOOSES them so that they may be called such, in TRUTH).

    Jesus died for ALL!

    Indeed. And that has been my message to Israel and those who go with them. The WTBTS would have us believe that you must belong to THEM… and follow THEM… and be led by THEM. As does ALL “religion.” But that is not the TRUTH.

    There is a requirement on the human's part in order to be saved -- and that is the BELIEVE in Jesus Christ:

    I must disagree with you. The requirement… is to EXERCISE FAITH... which many have mistransliterated into "believe". The demons believe, Undf'd. O ne’s faith, however, must be active… not passive. For if one sees another in need but does nothing to help… such one is NOT exercising faith in Christ. Why? Because such one… would DO… the “works” that that One did! He, my Lord, did NOT shut the door of his tender compassion on ANYONE. Can WE say we believe in him… and then shut ours? Faith… without works… is dead.

    However, Jesus did say that no one can come to Him unless The Father "draws" or "enables" him first.

    And it such one’s heart condition… as evidenced by its SOFTENING... its cleanliness (lack of hatred and hypocrisy)… its contrition (heartfelt sorrow at its own sin)… and its TRUE desire for mercy (demonstrated by IT being merciful toward OTHERS – Matthew 18:23-35)… that gets God’s attention… so that He WILL draw such one.

    I'm still doing Bible research on this subject, and will post more later.

    Wonderful… do your research. I might add, however, that is MUCH more easier to just go to the Source. IF… you have the active faith… that hears when he speaks.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hello Abaddon,

    You said:

    Okay, you asked for it;

    Yes, indeed I did, and I still encourage everyone to ask anything they want. I do not have all the answers, but I'll try my best to answer everyone.

    You said:

    Is there absolutely any objective proof for what you are claiming?

    Well, yes, I believe there is. However, it all depends on what you mean by "objective".

    I mean, you are probably not going to believe any info taken from a Christian Website, and I would probably be at least a little suspicious of info taken from Atheist Websites.

    I do not have a huge amount of free time. I will try to post links to objective proof and evidence as soon as I can.

    I will even try to post links to "both sides" of the argument.

    You said:

    There is no proof that the Genesis account is anything more than yet another creation myth, and it contradicts the physical evidence of what happed.
    There is no indication a global flood ever took place.
    There is no way that mankind could have seperated into different languages as late as the Bible claims it was unless eberything we know about linguistics is wrong.
    There is no evidence whatsoever that the Israelites spent 40 years in the wilderness; not one tent peg, not one midden.

    But have you heard about the chariot wheels found in the Red Sea?

    You said:

    The Mosaic Law contradicts basic human sexual biology yet is claimed to be inspired by our Creator.

    I have no idea what your claim is there. Please explain in more details.

    You said:

    The Old Testament is, when viewed objectively, nothing more than a modarately bloodthirsty quasi-historical account of the history of the Jews, with the Christian God of love approving of violence, bloodshed, misogyny, ethnic cleansing, child murder, sexual slavery of minors, and is thus indistinguishable from the quasi-historical accounts of other races of people.
    The face of a supposed god of love is further besmeared by inaction in the face of millenia of human suffering on account of god having so little self confidence he takes part in contests with the devil (whom he created).

    Those are your personal opinions -- but you claimed this was a list of "FACTS".

    You said:

    There is no proof of a historical Jesus.

    Oh boy, are you serious? Claiming that as a "FACT"? I think you should really, really do some more research. Try http://www.Google.com -- that's where I get all my information.

    There is no proof of any miracle, afterlife, paranorma event, or
    spiritual experience that could be described as relaible and repeatable.

    Hmmm, well not according to you because you do not believe what the eye-witnesses of resurrections and miracles say in the Bible.

    You said:

    The Bible as it is is worthless as a method of determining ones actions as interpretation is so wide and limitless in possibility.

    Once again, that is your opinion, not a "FACT".

    I could say the same thing about the U.S. Constitution, but does that mean we should stop relying on the Constitution, just because people interpret it in different ways?

    You said:

    Given these FACTS, it would seem all you are trying to do is market an internal delusion that you (being obviously special and clever and insightful) have some kind of message that would mean anything to people who do not share your internal delusion.

    Interesting. According to you, I am a special, clever, insightful, delusional person.

    I don't know what to think of that. Is that a complement or an insult?

    Also, are you saying that ALL Christians are delusional, or just me?

    Also, are you saying that anyone who has a different belief system than you is delusional?

    You said:

    You are wrong.

    If the Bible and the myth that is the Christian religion had any importance whatsoever, then we would not need to have our attention bought to it by delusional people on discussion boards; if it was important for us to know, there would be no doubts over factuality, it would be as evident and demonstrable as gravity.

    On what basis can you say that? How in the world can you possibly say that "If an infinite and all-powerful God really existed He would do such and such instead of such and such".

    Do you know how non-logical that is?

    Why do you think that infinitely inferior humans should ever be able to understand why an infinite and all-knowing God does everything that He does?

    That would NOT be logical to think that we would know and understand everything God does.

    You said:

    To consider otherwise is to allow for god playing games with people's lives and using something as worthless and mouldable as 'belief' as the currency by which is determined a humans worth; a contemptuously childish worldview, if I may say so.

    You can say whatever you want (as long as Simon allows it).

    Those are your opinions and you are entitled to them.

    I will pray for you, and the others on this Thread.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Undisfellowshipped:

    Well, yes, I believe there is. However, it all depends on what you mean by "objective".

    *sigh* No, it doesn't matter what I mean by objective, or what you mean by objective. Objective has it's own meaning reagrdless of what use people might put it to. It's why we have dictionaries. In this sense Mirriam Webster defines objective as;

    expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

    You also have the cheek to say;

    I mean, you are probably not going to believe any info taken from a Christian Website,

    Is this the Christian way of discussing something? Accuse someone of disregarding evidence without even investigating it without any proof?

    I would probably be at least a little suspicious of info taken from Atheist Websites.

    I think you would be better of doing a little background research FIRST before making fatuous assumptions based upon source regarding the validity of evidence presented. If you agree to look into the evidence that I provide without preconceptions (see the meaning of objective above), I assure you I will look at the evidence you provide.

    I note that rather than deal with the specific points I raise regarding Biblical 'accuracy', you instead raise a question. This is a very old technique employed by people who can't deal with the points that have been raised, but have something 'up their sleeve' they believe to be impressive clinching evidence. In this instance, I hope you will address the issues regarding creation, the flood, Babel and 40 years in the wilderness with no camp sites later on; you seen to have achariot wheel up your sleeve though, so let's deal with that first;

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33168

    "I am 99.9 percent sure I picked up a chariot wheel," Peter Elmer tells WorldNetDaily after two diving trips to the Gulf of Aqaba branch of the sea. "It was covered in coral."

    ...

    But despite all of Elmer's excitement, others who have been to the same location are not so sure what is being viewed underwater are the remnants of the great chase and urge extreme caution regarding the unsubstantiated claims.

    "All kinds of people are finding coral and calling it chariot parts," says Richard Rives, president of Wyatt Archaeological Research in Tennessee. "It's most likely coral covered with coral. ... Opportunists are combining false things with the true things that are found. These people are making it up as they go to be TV stars."

    Now it gets interesting, as Rives is not Mr. Sceptical scientist, but a true Mr. Raider of the Lost Ark, and HE doubts the evidence, despite his past record;

    Rives was a longtime partner of Ron Wyatt, an anesthetist and amateur archaeologist who died of cancer in 1999. Before passing away, Wyatt devoted years searching for and documenting physical evidence for events mentioned in the Bible. In addition to chariot wheels, Wyatt claimed to have found Noah's Ark on the mountain next to Ararat in Turkey, the "true" Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia and the Ark of the Covenant with the Ten Commandments near the site of Jesus Christ's crucifixion.

    Just a note to you gentle reader; I have yet to see the Ark, or any evidence of the Ark, other than laughably faked photographs. Likewise, there was no Ark of the Covenant in the British Museum last time I went there. This non-availability of proof that things claimed found were in fact found seems endemic to the field. Read what it says about a previous chariot wheel that was found;

    The hub had the remains of eight spokes radiating outward and was examined by Nassif Mohammed Hassan, director of Antiquities in Cairo. Hassan declared it to be from the 18th Dynasty of ancient Egypt, explaining the eight-spoked wheel was used only during that dynasty around 1400 B.C.

    Curiously, no one can account for the precise whereabouts of that eight-spoked wheel today, though Hassan is on videotape stating his conclusion regarding authenticity.

    Maybe it was carted off to somewhere in that big wharehouse we see the Ark of the Covenant being stored in at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, right next to Noah's Ark and the 17 tonnes of wood that has been collected together from various relics of the true cross...

    As regards the current chariot wheel;

    When Mary Nell went diving with Ron, she says it was very easy to assume (wrongly) that every item on the flat bottom had historical significance.

    "[At first] I thought everything was a chariot wheel!" Mrs. Wyatt exclaimed, noting how difficult it is for the untrained eye to distinguish an artifact from a piece of coral. "I'm just trying to be cautious about over-identifying too much. ... It is God's truth, and we can't hype it up. We can't add to it."

    So much for chariot wheels... we will just have to hope that this time it doesn't get lost like the other one did... Oh, it's worthy of noting that finding a wheel and even a few bones in the sea doesn't prove anything either; finding remains consistant with an army being inundated would require lots of wheels and lots of bones. Also, one has to realise that whilst there might be grains of truth in the account in the Bible, that is a different thing from god-directed plauges and seas parting.

    As regards sexual biology, the Bible essentially reccomends monogamy and isn against men sleeping with other men's women. If one looks at the biological adaptations of the human species, one find the following;

    Testicle size when compared to other primates indicates a natural sexual biology somewhere between the chimp and the gorilla; chimps have huge balls, as the females engages in vast gang-bangs when fertile, and the more sperm a male chimp has the more likely it will succeed in fertilising an egg. Gorillas have harems that they have exclusive sexual access to and have tiny balls. Human males have medium sized balls and thus would seem to have developed in a environment where there was some sperm competition between males as sexual access was not exclusive.

    This is backed-up by the fact that a man will ejaculate far more than usual when he has been away from his regular sexual partner for a fe days - even if he has had sex or masturbated since seeing her. This would serve to hopefully flush out any other males sperm. Some sperm are also apparently 'anti-sperm sperm', and ride defence against other male's sperm.

    All of these adaptations show that humans are adapted for a non-monogamous sexual environment. If we were created to be monogamous we would not have adaptations to protect us from non-monogamy. The Bible asks us to be mongamous. This is clear proof that whoever drafted the sexual mores in the Bible didn't know anything about human biology.

    In other words, rather than it being god's word, it's some cultures ideas that have been handed down to us disguised as god's word.

    In response to some comments of mine you say;

    Those are your personal opinions -- but you claimed this was a list of "FACTS".

    Oh, but they are facts, I said;

    The Old Testament is, when viewed objectively, nothing more than a modarately bloodthirsty quasi-historical account of the history of the Jews, with the Christian God of love approving of violence, bloodshed, misogyny, ethnic cleansing, child murder, sexual slavery of minors, and is thus indistinguishable from the quasi-historical accounts of other races of people.

    Have you forgotten about god directing the invasion of what is modern day Israel, authorising the Israelites to wage war to gain land, ejecting or killing the indigenous people, which included at times even killing boy children and only keeping virgin girls alive to be made into slaves? If that happened as discribed in the Bible, then it happened with god's approval. If my tweleve year-old daughter can figure out unprompted what the likely fate of those girls was, I am sure you can. Rape, after having their entire families killed in front of them. Given this treament of females, if you really want to discuss further whether the Bible is misogynistic (there's so much in it in both Old and New Testaments), I'm happy to, but unless you really want to will assume that this is accepted.

    I also said;

    The face of a supposed god of love is further besmeared by inaction in the face of millenia of human suffering on account of god having so little self confidence he takes part in contests with the devil (whom he created).

    Okay, what is your explanation of 'the fall of man', the trials of Job, why Jesus came? If it's not a contest with the devil to determine god's rights, what is it?

    Regarding the proof of Christ; go on then, prove it. Whilst you are at it, please include evidence to show that the Gospels represent what he actually said and what happened. For me the clincher is the total lack of supporting evidence for dead people coming out of their tombs when Jesus died; this would have been reported by contemporary sources and the fact its not show at least part of the Gospel story is myth - and that there is no way of determining what is myth and what is fact.


    You also seem to be under a misconception;

    Hmmm, well not according to you because you do not believe what the eye-witnesses of resurrections and miracles say in the Bible.

    So, if it is written down it is true? This means that the Book of Mormon, the Bagahadva Vita, the Quran, and a large number of other texts that claim sacred status must also be true. You cannot take a written account as evidence of anything unless there is evidence to back it up; otherwise you have to accept all UFO stories and book your holidays to Scotland next year to see Nessie.

    I love the nest bit; I say that textual interpretation of the Bible is effcetively infinate and unresolvable, you say;

    Once again, that is your opinion, not a "FACT".

    I could say the same thing about the U.S. Constitution, but does that mean we should stop relying on the Constitution, just because people interpret it in different ways?

    I produce as evidence thousands of different Christian faiths ALL BASED ON THE SAME BOOK, ALL WITH DIFFERING INTERPRETATIONS. I also produce as evidence the USA, a single country which can resolve differences in interpretation of its founding documents so succesfully as to remain a single country.

    If you do some reading you will see that the interpretation of the Consititution is aided by its wording and structure; the 'right to bear arms' is the major fault in it, as due to the poor syntax and grammar used it is interpretable in different ways. Normally the framers of the Consititution were more careful in their choice of words. This cannot be said for the Bible.

    As you have yet to provide proof of one element of your faith I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume you and other people are as delusional as anyone who claims things they cannot prove are facts one should base their life on. Your shared delusion makes you think, that despite no evidence, you have cleverly found THE truth, and that everyone should accept it. Thus the sarcastic comment about special and clever and insightful.

    And it is not just Christians; any religonist who cannot externally repeatably and objectively prove their beliefs and expects others to conform to them is equally delusional, because they assume their internal reality is proof enough for people to accept as fact.

    In response to me saying if it were important it would be as obvious and demionstrable as gravity you say;

    On what basis can you say that? How in the world can you possibly say that "If an infinite and all-powerful God really existed He would do such and such instead of such and such".

    Do you know how non-logical that is?

    I am going on the character of god described in the Bible. The god who would not destroy Sodom if there were ten faithful men in it, the god who says he wants all to be saved, this supposed god of love; would he really not give proof of his existence and the historical validity of his text book? He made our minds and our minds (unless infected with religious belief) demand proof. Thus, failing to provide proof would be morally impossible for the god described in the Bible if it would result in one person failing to accept it as truth.

    That's logical; it's using ineffable plans as an excuse for no evidence that is illogical.

    I will pray for you, and the others on this Thread.

    How wonderfully condesending. Would you be flattered if I said I would sacrifice a chicken to Baal for you? It means as much to me as a neo-nazi saying he pities me for not believing in the Zionist conspiracy (that he believes in but cannot prove).

    Save your prayers, they won't make me believe.

    YOU PROVING YOUR BELIEFS WILL MAKE ME BELIEVE.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Hi, Un Disfellowshipped

    You said:

    Romans 2:4-5 shows that a person CAN reject God's kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering, and can choose NOT to repent, even though God wants him to.

    I can agree with part of your statement "a person CAN reject God's kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering, and can choose NOT to repent". Acts 7:51 says exactly what I believe! "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, you also do."

    Untouched or unaided by God a person will always reject God's kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering, and can and always will choose NOT to repent".

    You go on to say:

    God DESIRES that ALL MEN should be saved! Therefore, anyone who is not saved, does so against the desire of God.

    If these verses are to be applied the way you suggest, we have a problem. This would mean that God is not ruling the universe, and is, or can be frustrated by the "will" of man. That doesn't sound all powerful to me.

    It is much easier for me to apply those verses like this:

    (1Ti 2:4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
    (1Ti 2:5) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
    (1Ti 2:6) who gave Himself a ransom for all, the testimony in due time;

    All the men that God desires to be saved, will be saved, proof coming in due time.

    Next you say: Jesus is the Propitiation for the WHOLE WORLD'S SINS!

    Again I would urge caution, that statement could suggest that the whole world is saved, and I know you don't believe that. I ask you. How do you apply this verse? 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

    Finally Don't confuse Calvinism with Hyper-Calvinism which is what appears to be happening.

    Thank you for your time

    Deputy Dog

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Looking forward to your reply Undis!

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